How to price kitchen cabinet build

[Patrick Walsh]

Yes I failed to mention my LF price is uppers and lowers.

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Above paint grade pantry represents that price range in my area well.

The stain grade island above not so much it I’m pretty sure in the scope of a project with both stain and paint grade parts it gets pumped in. My opinion is it shouldn’t and my boss closing the doors of his shop because he can’t make money is all the prof I need.

The bellow kitchen or project imop can’t be produced for $1500 LF...

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Roughly 1000/lf here for mid grade (1" doors, beaded, inset, 52-54" tall x 15" deep uppers) with end panels and painted.

This assumes 1/4 of it is island w/o uppers.

Individual boxes with individual face frames.

[Tom M King]

I'm truly thankful that I have never had to spend any time giving, or even thinking about estimates, or dealing with deadlines. When I was building new stuff for a living, I built a house, and sold it. That way, I only had to please myself, and never figured out what it cost to build anything, but by building it. I always built the cabinets too, but have absolutely no idea how much they cost, or what percentage of the house cost they were. Good luck to anyone that has to please other people, and to a price.

[Richard Coers]

A $700 range per foot is a wide range. Hard to think about something on the cabinet nearly costing twice as much as the low end option. The Amish are very hard to compete against. Often they buy lumber from a family member, and send the cabinets to another family member to be finished. I do admire their independence, their work ethic, and really admire their farms. The farms are like all farms were in 1950s. Instead of the bulldozed hay barns and little sheds of todays corporate farm with gigantic steel sheds with renters in the old farmstead homes.

[Patrick Walsh]

Easy build

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Less easy

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Also easy but slower a bit slower

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Slow

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That’s the 700 difference. Pretty easy to see imop but that just me.

In no way am I being argumentative, just sharing my perspective..

A $700 range per foot is a wide range. Hard to think about something on the cabinet nearly costing twice as much as the low end option. The Amish are very hard to compete against. Often they buy lumber from a family member, and send the cabinets to another family member to be finished. I do admire their independence, their work ethic, and really admire their farms. The farms are like all farms were in 1950s. Instead of the bulldozed hay barns and little sheds of todays corporate farm with gigantic steel sheds with renters in the old farmstead homes.

[Darcy Warner]

As in way off high or way off low.

That’s just what is is here.

I don’t make rules.

Interesting to hear what is way off.

I know one architect we build for uses this Amish guy in the middle of the country. I have been told some of his prices for very specific pieces. I am always left thinking I could barely purchase the materials for that much.

Boston is a very very expensive place to live and do business.

Don't even try to figure out why the Amish charge what they do. I live in the middle of Amish country, best to just not try and compete.

[Patrick Walsh]

I agree Darcy.

I also agree with whomever for the most part suggested figure out what it takes “you” to produce said product and charge that.

Otherwise it’s a failing business model and you’d might as well quit before you even get started. I just spent 3 years “well I’m still working for a couple more months” working for a guy I was telling up and down weekly he was not charging enough and his business would ultimately fail. He always came back with that’s the market value and I know the market value and that’s all I can charge. This is our demographic blah blah blah. That may be true but when the average home price of said kitchen is 3-5 million dollars I don’t have much understanding or empathy for those squeezing little guys trying to feed their family’s.

I always found his rational as suspect knowing that if a builder or homeowner gets a quote from three cabinet shops one will come in at 60k another 90k then one at 160k all for the same exact project. This has been a fact in both my time building custom homes to now building custom cabinetry.

That’s just the way the cabinet business is at least in my area.

My point is it cost what it cost the individual and or specific shop to produce and turn a profit or just don’t do it as sooner or later it won’t be your to choose as you’ll just sink..

o

Don't even try to figure out why the Amish charge what they do. I live in the middle of Amish country, best to just not try and compete.

[jack duren]

The AMISH are actually buying CNC's now here in midwest....

[Jared Sankovich]

The amish where im originally from in Pennsylvania are about 500/lf for beaded inset with 3/4" doors and mortised and tenond face frames. No price difference for paint vs stain grade or any custom depth or height beyond normal

[Patrick Walsh]

Jesus,

Not a chance lol....

Either I’m slow, they are lightning fast or the price of shop space, utilities, and labor are just not even comparable here in Boston.

For instance I’m in the market for a new job and I will not accept anything less than $35hr health coverage fully paid by my employer and 7-10 paid holidays and 3-4 weeks of vacation often two years.

Factor in what it cost a employer to in addition to the $35 hr to pay me and no way they can charge $500 LF.

And I’m not unique. Anyone reliable with any amount of talent would demand the same wages.

Just recently I watched a program that made clear Boston and metropolitan Boston are now more expensive to live than even NYC. They said the only place more expensive right now is San Francisco.

I believe it. My residential electric bill is $300 a month alone.

The amish where im originally from in Pennsylvania are about 500/lf for beaded inset with 3/4" doors and mortised and tenond face frames. No price difference for paint vs stain grade or any custom depth or height beyond normal

[Mark Bolton]

One of the more refreshing pricing threads Ive read. At least there is a notion of gathering YOUR material expenses, tallying the time it will take YOUR shop to build them, and pricing accordingly. Pricing to the market is delusional in that if your customer is shopping for cabs at the home center and that "is" your local market, and your shoving material across a table saw, using a jointer, router table, you are dead. The only thing investigating your "market" does is tell you whether you should go find another job, or if you have a slight chance. If your lucky enough to be in Tom's world of dealing with clients that trust you to build anything at any cost without any form of budget or concept then this post wouldnt even exist.

Coming from 30 years of residential construction (which I have run from like a house on fire), the advice to very quickly, surgically, and firmly, beat it out of your customer as to what exactly they have in mind, and moreso what is a go/no go budget is your number one goal out of the gate. Do not put a single pencil to paper or a pixel on the screen until you have that information. And even after that proceed very cautiously until you are locked on contract and deposit for at least some portion of the project that covers your design time.

If they come back with an insane low factory number from a home center or cab design shop that is feeding factory cabs your probably sunk and best to bail. If they are however entertaining a reasonable budget, have seen some things that interest them but nothing that is exactly what they feel they want, and moreso see a direct and clear value in the quality and flexibility of design your shop can provide, then you have a chance. But still get on contract early and dont invest a ton of time without doing so.

If you were running even modest CNC, semi/small-ish production, you can get creative in chasing some of the factory cab numbers with modest bumps in quality that people appreciated.

Dont get me started on the Amish. I have had posts deleted here numerous times for reasons I will never understand other than the mod's are on the Amish mafia payroll. It is a completely unfair, unjust, and an utter scam on our system. The quality will range from good to complete junk all wrapped in a flagrant lie of bonnets, beards, and suspenders. But people eat it up. I feel for anyone in the heart of that territory as its a terrible thing out on the fringes.

[Mark Bolton]

and labor are just not even comparable here in Boston.

There in lies the rub. Free/slave labor, no workers comp, no insurance. Then you add in miles of other little gains along the way and they can operate a facility with dozens or hundreds of people for pennies on the dollar compared to legitimate operations. Or I guess I should say operations that are not afforded the same exemptions.

My philosophy on this is when you move into the supply side of manufacturing you operate on the level playing field we all do regardless of your personal issues. Whether you self insure or not, your still on the field.

We unfortunately are still in a time where that is not enforceable.

What should however be completely enforceable by the FTC and others is completely deceptive advertising and pursuit of poor workmanship. Perhaps the consumer will come around at some point but its unlikely if the prices are kept so low. Locally many have been burned with shoddy work but the jobs are all cash basis and most people simply dont pursue going after them.

[Jared Sankovich]

The small amish shops pay between 12.50 and $17, no vacation or holidays or health ins.

Land is cheap, buildings are cheap utilities are non existent

[Patrick Walsh]

Mark I completely agree with everything you said above.

I also decided to run from the general construction custom home market as imop it’s a failing venture except for those few whom cater to the top 1% and can charge whatever they want. I have worked for a few of these people over the years and it pretty much goes like such. This is how much my crew cost a month and “I think, but not promise” it will generally take this long. The person that goes for this in most cases is a venture capitalist, CFO of a bank or major corporation or someone with family money going back generations. Getting your piece of this market is like hitting the lottery. And even then over my career I have seen the name in this type high end residential construction change on a 10-15 year cycle.

What I want to know is would the Amish take the time to grain match every stick as I am for this qs white oak full overlay kitchen. If so we’ll then I say we are all screwed. The kitchen these are for is a combination of qs white oak island and lowers and painted uppers and fridge box.

I had just under 30 of these qs doors and drawers and end panels to make. Easily from sizing up the sheet stock to an exact size 3/32nd reveals factored in to milling up the oak, laying it all out, not making one wrong cut or it’s all trash and miter wrapping and gluing and sanding I’d say I’m at an average of at least one hour a door and that that’s conservative. Honestly it’s probably more like 2 hrs a door or drawer but the time everything is sanded and ready for stain.

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Nothing special or at all hard but time consuming. The slightest bit of glue left behind spells disaster for finishing and or stain penetration. On wrong cut of the mdf means a new sheet or milling up all matching qs all over again.

Would most shops go to such a length if a mistake was made vrs let it slide I think not.

Business is cutthroat. The trades generally stink. Money is pure evil and the downfall of everything but there’s also very few ways to avoid it all.

I don’t think we are gonna ever regulate corruption on a large or small scale. There will always be people happy to make a better life for themself even if it be on the backs and directly at the expense of the next guy. I don’t like and that’s why I just work for someone. I’m not willing to join in.

[Patrick Walsh]

We are talking two different world.

Here you can be a greater at Walmart and have a better job. It’s pretty sad that in America a person willing to work and with a honed hard earned vocation can’t do better than some guy who is willing to and knows well how to play the system and live off the dole....

The small amish shops pay between 12.50 and $17, no vacation or holidays or health ins.

Land is cheap, buildings are cheap utilities are non existent

[jack duren]

We are talking two different world.

Here you can be a greater at Walmart and have a better job. It’s pretty sad that in America a person willing to work and with a honed hard earned vocation can’t do better than some guy who is willing to and knows well how to play the system and live off the dole....

KC pays the same for cabinet makers...