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Thread: #4 Planes

  1. #16
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    Have a Type 20, Made in England Stanley #4c.....use it quite a bit, while doing raised panels with hand planes....
    British No. 4.jpg
    And have no issues with it...

    BTW: Just looked in the shop...
    Millers Falls No. 9 and a No.8..smooth sole, thicker, solid tool steel irons ( and, have never had one chatter)
    There is a Stanley No. 3c to go along with the Brit No. 4c
    There is also a Type 10 No. 4 smooth sole to go with the No. 3, Type 11
    There is also a Sargent No. 408, type 5, smooth sole.

    IF you ever get the chance to get the Millers Falls irons....you will find them a LOT thicker than the Stanley irons..Calipers read .074 Stanley, to .085 M-F......
    Stanley went with the 2-piece depth yoke, because everyone was breaking the cast iron ones...and to copy the Millers Falls ones already on the market.

    IF you are wondering where Clifton got the idea for the 2 piece lever cap....look no further than the Millers Falls lever caps....that started in 1929....

  2. #17
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    This is interesting to hear. I have really wanted to try the Clifton planes. I currently have a Type 19 Stanley #4 with a PM-V11 blade in it. As my main "finishing" plane. Then I use a Sargent VBM 409 that I love for general work. Then a Millers Fall #9 that I like ... but don't love. Probably will sell sometime soon.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Danstrom View Post
    Very interesting claim. Can you point out which features were changed to reduce cost?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinus Loewensteijn View Post
    I'm not Jim but this is my impression.

    The frog got changed and did not require as much machining. The cast iron did not get aged as much - it got machined too soon with the risk of twisting later on due to the stresses still present in the iron. The lever knob changed, the lever fork and the side adjustment lever became some cheesy bit of twisted steel and the tote and knob eventually became plastic. In the end even the frog did not get machined properly. The early type 19 are about the latest that have some resemblance of being decent. I rather have a Stanley Four Square than type 19 (or later). The later Stanley Defiance is of a lower quality than the early Four Square and I would not touch it with a bargepole either.
    Marinus sums it up quite well. My preference for a low knob makes it hard for me to like Stanley/Bailey planes after type 14, 1929 and on.

    IF you are wondering where Clifton got the idea for the 2 piece lever cap....look no further than the Millers Falls lever caps....that started in 1929....
    This has me confused. Maybe it is from not being current on planes other than Stanley/Bailey.

    It was my understanding Millers Falls created a 2 piece lever cap to apply pressure to the blade and chip breaker at three points.

    My impression of the Clifton design is a chip breaker that is two pieces to make it quicker/easier to hone a blade.

    Maybe it is time for me to do a little reading on what is going on in the modern world of planes.

    Though my two type 6, 1888-1891, #4s are both doing quite fine despite there accumulation of dings, nicks and rust.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Marinus sums it up quite well. My preference for a low knob makes it hard for me to like Stanley/Bailey planes after type 14, 1929 and on.



    This has me confused. Maybe it is from not being current on planes other than Stanley/Bailey.

    It was my understanding Millers Falls created a 2 piece lever cap to apply pressure to the blade and chip breaker at three points.

    My impression of the Clifton design is a chip breaker that is two pieces to make it quicker/easier to hone a blade.

    Maybe it is time for me to do a little reading on what is going on in the modern world of planes.

    Though my two type 6, 1888-1891, #4s are both doing quite fine despite there accumulation of dings, nicks and rust.

    jtk
    Jim,

    I think Clifton has dropped the two piece cap iron. At least this one has a one piece chip breaker.

    I'm with you on the older Stanley's but I do have tool round heels and like to occasionly see if anything is better. I haven't found it yet but maybe it is out there somewhere.

    ken

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    Jim,

    I think Clifton has dropped the two piece cap iron. At least this one has a one piece chip breaker.

    I'm with you on the older Stanley's but I do have tool round heels and like to occasionly see if anything is better. I haven't found it yet but maybe it is out there somewhere.

    ken
    Many of the new(er) planes are quite nice. The LNs have much less backlash on there depth adjusters if that is a problem for someone. The machining is top notch and they tend to work superbly out of the box, something few old Stanley/Bailey planes have going for them.

    Though having become accustomed to the quirks of my old planes, it is easy to use them to do what ever is required of them.

    My third #4 was more of a type 13 Franken plane. It was recently sold to another member. My third #3 size plane was a Dunlap by Millers Falls and given to my grandson.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #21
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    Hmm..
    Smoothers, Millers falls.JPG
    Millers Falls No. 8 and No. 9, with the thicker "Solid Tool Steel" irons
    Smoothers, No. 4s.JPG
    Brit Stanley #4c, Stanley No. 4, Type 10, Millers Falls No.9, type 4 Last of the good, Premium planes
    Why 2 Stanley No. 4s?
    Smoothers, No. 4 soles.JPG
    One sole is smooth, one isn't....same with my 2 Stanley No. 3s
    Smoothers, Stanley #3s.JPG
    The "newer" one is a "c" model..
    Smoothers, Stanley #3 soles.JPG
    The older Type 11 is the smooth soled one...
    handle choices?
    Smoothers, No. 4s back view.JPG
    Actually, I kind of like that taped handle, gives a bit more "grip"...no idea what is under the tape, handle came with the plane..
    I said I also had a Sargent #408..
    Smoothers, Sargent #408.JPG
    Complete with the round Sargent logo on the iron.

    All have their OEM blades, and chipbreakers. When one plane gets a little dull, I just reach for the next in line...then do a sharpening when the shop is between projects...

    Millers Falls went with one piece lever caps for their "made for ( insert brand name) planes, also left off the frog adjuster bolt. In the 50s, they came out with the Mohawk-Shelburne line ( after WW2) then went to the V-Line planes...finally, the type 5 planes were....bad....barely machined, one piece lever caps, phillips headed bolts everywhere....stay away.
    There were 2 type 2 eras, the type 3 was during the WW2 era, then they went back to the type 2, then the type 4.

    I don't usually have any Sargent planes ( Fulton/Dunlap for sears, too) they don't seem to stick around very long. Don't know why...

    But, this is about it for smoothers in the Dungeon Shop..YMMV, it is your shop.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    ...
    My preference for a low knob makes it hard for me to like Stanley/Bailey planes after type 14, 1929 and on.
    ...
    jtk
    The Stanley Four Square (that I have) does not have the raised ring around the knob. If I remember correctly the cracking of the knob base got worse after the low knob was replaced by the higher knob.

    Since the Four Square does not appear to be holding any collectors value I have been wondering how easy would it be to replace the later knob with the earlier low knob? Would someone be making low knobs (I have no friends / know no-one who has a lathe to make one for me) and then I've got the problem with the screw holding the knob being too long.

  8. #23
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    Most of my spare parts come from finding junker planes at yard sales and such. Sometimes you can find one on an auction site with the screw included. The problem for you might be if it is in the U.S. the shipping is going to be substantial.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 10-11-2019 at 2:19 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Most of my spare parts come from finding junker planes at yard sales and such. Sometimes you can find one on an auction site with the screw iincluded. The problem for you might be if it is in the U.S. the shipping is going to be substantial.

    jtk
    The global shipping costs on the ePray website are just ridiculous. A long time ago I started to use the New Zealand Post freight forwarding service in Portland, Oregon 97203 and that has saved me a lot of expense. Unfortunately if a seller is less than honest in their description and/or fobs you off with something of lesser quality then shipping it back makes it not worthwhile. The result is that I only buy from sellers with 100% positive feedback and with a large number of sales.

  10. #25
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    Here is a guy Bill Rittner that make knobs, totes, and has knob studs. I think they where talking about him on finewoodworking podcast a few weeks ago.
    http://hardwarecitytools.com/products.html

  11. #26
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    Do you have a drill press? If so, select a block of whatever wood you'd like as a knob. Drill a hole through the center. Use a LONG bolt, to where you can add a washer, and a nut, and still chuck the end into the DP's chuck....

    Rasps, files, all sorts of snadpaper....spin the blank until a shape YOU like/want appears...remove bolt from the finished knob. Drill the counter-bores as needed, using the bolt hole as a center. Top counter-bore is USUALLY about 0.475", but measure beforehand for the drill bit sizes. Boss where the knob attaches to the base is sometimes a tad larger diameter. IF the rod is now too long to attach the knob...there is usually plenty of threads on each end, that you can shorten each end a few threads..be sure to champfer the rods ends when you do.

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