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Thread: Table Saw Questions

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA Edwards View Post
    Don't know what your magic is, but cross cutting a 4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" plywood or MDF, I'm going to my sheet of 4'x8'x 2" pink insulation, on the floor, and then using my track saw. Wrestling that heavy sheet while trying not to bind up the saw blade, on my cabinet saw, no, I'll go to my ground method, hardest part is sanding up after kneeling making the cut(s).
    You have to in a cabinet shop..not all shops have sliders or other alternatives. Commercial or residential but most are turning to CNC 's these days..

  2. #32
    Between 2006-2013 I cut melamine on a Powermatic with 52" fence that had been converted to a 96" but i eventually converted it back to a 52" because it was a bit much. I cut and keep guys busy 5 days a week. It was the norm..

  3. #33
    Join Date
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    Regarding sheet goods, I used to wrestle them on the Craftlsman with a single outfeed roller. Besides the saw wanting to fall over, a 4 x 8 was a bear for me and I'm not any younger here. There was nothing safe nor accurate about it. A straight edge or track saw will have to do for this kid.

    May I change the focus a bit, please? Routing is critical to me. I currently have a cheesy router table - light aluminum, with a lousy fence, the work drags on the table, hard to get to the router for bit changes and adjustments - think cheap. I want heavy. That is why I thought the Griz with the router table. BUT, I realized that the table accepts a round insert and appears to have no dedicated fence no T-slot for a miter set-up.

    I also realize my work flow usually seems to jump from one operation to another. This would mean at times, perhaps dropping the router to use the saw. That would make repeatable router cuts impossible. Additionally, the router mounted in the Griz would be very close to the wheel to raise/lower the blade - not too cool.

    May I get suggestions as an alternative?
    a) A separate router table may be acceptable, but it would have to be HEAVY as I do raised panels. But they seem to be the cost of the saw, and that dog won't hunt.
    b) Is there is a router table to put on the Griz (right or left side?), that is has a fence and t-slot, and will accept a router lift. Are there repeatable lifts?

    I believe the light is nearing...

    Thanks,
    John

  4. #34
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    Routing - extension wing or dedicated table:

    I am not sure you will save 'that' much from a cost savings perspective. Just that I am thinking I built my router cabinet/table from leftover mdf that was given to me. It is a nice setup and has all the features I want.

    But purchased a lift. Purchased a table insert (not the big item). Purchased a heavy router. Purchased a fence. These were the bulk of the cost. Other than possibly sharing a fence with the tablesaw (which I never really was inclined towards the incra fence style on a TS), you have all these same costs. And yes I have nearly as much in my router table as my TS.

    Am thinking you will have to add it all up both ways, just first glance its not obvious to me a huge cost difference. So go with the one that serves your needs the best.

  5. #35
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    Nice perspective, Carl. I think my needs are equal. Unfortunately, cost constraints tip the equality balance somewhat. Either I put the money in one bucket, or I skimp on both - and I eschew the latter. Why are Boy's Toys so expensive? Maybe I can justify an expanded expenditure on my wife's shoes .

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by John McGovern View Post
    May I change the focus a bit, please? Routing is critical to me. I currently have a cheesy router table - light aluminum, with a lousy fence, the work drags on the table, hard to get to the router for bit changes and adjustments - think cheap. I want heavy. That is why I thought the Griz with the router table. BUT, I realized that the table accepts a round insert and appears to have no dedicated fence no T-slot for a miter set-up.

    I also realize my work flow usually seems to jump from one operation to another. This would mean at times, perhaps dropping the router to use the saw. That would make repeatable router cuts impossible. Additionally, the router mounted in the Griz would be very close to the wheel to raise/lower the blade - not too cool.

    May I get suggestions as an alternative?
    a) A separate router table may be acceptable, but it would have to be HEAVY as I do raised panels. But they seem to be the cost of the saw, and that dog won't hunt.
    b) Is there is a router table to put on the Griz (right or left side?), that is has a fence and t-slot, and will accept a router lift. Are there repeatable lifts?

    I believe the light is nearing...

    Thanks,
    John
    I don't have one myself, but I've heard lots of convincing arguments for a shaper rather than a router table. Especially for the kind of heavy work you're wanting to do with it. By the time you pay for a table, lift, router, fence, etc you could be getting a small shaper.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by John McGovern View Post
    Nice perspective, Carl. I think my needs are equal. Unfortunately, cost constraints tip the equality balance somewhat. Either I put the money in one bucket, or I skimp on both - and I eschew the latter. Why are Boy's Toys so expensive? Maybe I can justify an expanded expenditure on my wife's shoes .
    I think the TS is first priority. You can do a lot with a basic router and no dedicated table setup. Go from there.

  8. #38
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    Their is no magic, Jack is correct on this one cabinetmakers that do this all day long back in the day ( probably today) used a saw with a 52 fence an an enormous outfeed, in the right hands MUCH faster and repeatable than a track saw any day. The first shops I worked in had no sliders or cnc and their were days where I broke down entire lifts of ply and mdf however as Jim said not everyone can have the correct setup or even afford it. (kinda debatable though...) honestly the correct setup in my opinion of 35yrs of woodworking is a slider 9 min, will eliminate miter box, track saw (even though i still use mine) improve the safety and most of all will improve the quality of work and efficiency.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA Edwards View Post
    Don't know what your magic is, but cross cutting a 4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" plywood or MDF, I'm going to my sheet of 4'x8'x 2" pink insulation, on the floor, and then using my track saw. Wrestling that heavy sheet while trying not to bind up the saw blade, on my cabinet saw, no, I'll go to my ground method, hardest part is sanding up after kneeling making the cut(s).

  9. #39
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    Okotoks AB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark e Kessler View Post
    Their is no magic, Jack is correct on this one cabinetmakers that do this all day long back in the day ( probably today) used a saw with a 52” fence an an enormous outfeed, in the right hands MUCH faster and repeatable than a track saw any day. The first shops I worked in had no sliders or cnc and their were days where I broke down entire lifts of ply and mdf however as Jim said not everyone can have the correct setup or even afford it. (kinda debatable though...) honestly the correct setup in my opinion of 35yrs of woodworking is a slider 9’ min, will eliminate miter box, track saw (even though i still use mine) improve the safety and most of all will improve the quality of work and efficiency.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that in a commercial cabinet shop breaking down sheet goods on a big saw is the way to go. But in a hobby shop, where there isn't the room for the in & out feed tables, and just as importantly, the dollies & carts to handle the full sheets, it just isn't practical. But how many of us, in our hobby shops, are doing production work day in & day out.

  10. #40
    I have a unisaw with a 52" fence and a 4 ' out feed table. I like it this way so if I rip 11" shelves the weight on the end lift it on its own at the end of the cut.

    This is in my hobby/ garage shop...I have tried to explain this with people setting up shops. For me the tablesaw is #1 and gets the most room....

    only picture i havetablesaw.JPG
    Last edited by jack duren; 10-11-2019 at 12:52 AM.

  11. #41
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    It's really nice to have multiple choices!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #42
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    I agree, Sometimes it's difficult to respond with an on point example/opinion - easy to misinterpret email/blog entry's especially when they might not be in order of the responses...

    My recommendation even for a hobby shop is in the following preference
    1. Slider, longest that can fit, excels at everything
    2. Short slider and tracksaw for breaking down sheet goods, better a slider than no slider
    3. Cabinet saw max 36" rip , I would argue that you don't even need 36" if space is a concern and you plan on doing mostly solid, just use a track saw, this is what I did for years after I closed down my shop and sold my slider.
    a. for the cabinet saw build an 18"-24" fixed outfeed with a 30" or so drop down, now you have a big outfeed for the occasional ply and a work table when you need more area for sanding,finishing etc.

    I get that a slider is a lot of money so if you are 70 years old and have a limited budget then the payoff may not be so great but if you are 30 -40 and you invest in a quality slider you could get 40 years out of it (maybe). Also most will say a slider takes up too much space, true you do need space to the left free but with the right setup there is room, I have a 9' slider, 16" j/p, cyclone, router table, drill press, bandsaw, lumber rack...blablabla, you get the idea in a 24' x 24' and I still have room to add an edge sander. In about 15 min I can move everything to one side and get a car in with very little drama so if you need to park a car in the garage this may not work.



    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Pratt View Post
    I don't think anyone is arguing that in a commercial cabinet shop breaking down sheet goods on a big saw is the way to go. But in a hobby shop, where there isn't the room for the in & out feed tables, and just as importantly, the dollies & carts to handle the full sheets, it just isn't practical. But how many of us, in our hobby shops, are doing production work day in & day out.

  13. #43
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    Not sure how far this thread has wandered from the original post/questions.

    But to #2) of his list, my preference is a shorter table/fence. I do put a short outfeed (24") table, but have never appreciated the larger fence/table. Most of the time is just becomes another spot for piling stuff, is more difficult to move around, and takes up more shop space. So if I do get another cabinet saw it will be of the short fence variety. 2.5 car garage, moving tools to accommodate the cars parked in there, is not 'that' big of a woodworking space.

    It is just my 'opinion' and I do things 'wrong' all the time.

    OP original post:
    1) Cabinet or Hybrid? If Hybrid, I don't want to have to jack-around with trunnions all the time.
    2) 52" rails and wing?
    3) If the answer to #2 is yes, some saws come with long rails, but no wing insert - what to do?
    4) Is a router wing worth having, and is there a generic that fits most saws, or are they saw-specific?
    5) I have 220V, so should I skip the 2HP models and go right to 3HP? (Probably a stupid question...)
    6) Finally, what are your favorite models? New and used are both acceptable. So much has changed and my head is whirling like the blade on the falling Craftsman... Saw Stop will not be an option; I will rely on my discipline to keep all Ten.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
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    Michigan
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    Hi John
    Welcome back into the shop.

    Will you be building one houseful of cabinets or do you expect to continue? If one then a simpler method may serve better in the long term. If you will continue to build cabinets long term then a more extensive setup will be needed, probably including the shaper. In either case my preference would be the track saw.

    A cabinet project will necessitate storage and an assembly table. Your wife will be parking outside for a while.

    Could a track saw be converted to an assembly table and also be stored vertically?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by John McGovern View Post
    May I change the focus a bit, please? Routing is critical to me. I currently have a cheesy router table - light aluminum, with a lousy fence, the work drags on the table, hard to get to the router for bit changes and adjustments - think cheap. I want heavy. That is why I thought the Griz with the router table. BUT, I realized that the table accepts a round insert and appears to have no dedicated fence no T-slot for a miter set-up.

    I also realize my work flow usually seems to jump from one operation to another. This would mean at times, perhaps dropping the router to use the saw. That would make repeatable router cuts impossible. Additionally, the router mounted in the Griz would be very close to the wheel to raise/lower the blade - not too cool.

    May I get suggestions as an alternative?
    a) A separate router table may be acceptable, but it would have to be HEAVY as I do raised panels. But they seem to be the cost of the saw, and that dog won't hunt.
    b) Is there is a router table to put on the Griz (right or left side?), that is has a fence and t-slot, and will accept a router lift. Are there repeatable lifts?

    I believe the light is nearing...

    Thanks,
    John
    John

    My personal opinion is that a separate router table is better, if you have the space.
    Until I got a shaper my router was in a very heavily built table. It wasn't pretty, and certainly didn't look like anything special.It was a doubled up 2x4 construction and a baltic birch top. It was 2' deep and 4' long. the size of the baltic birch sheet. It was very heavy by itself and I used to store sandbags underneath. It's single best feature,it was dead on flat!!
    If I was going to ever put a router back into a table saw, it would only be with a cast iron extension wing made specifically for it. There are many repeatable lifts, but they require that the router bit be reinstalled in the router exactly the same.

    Take a page out of the book folks that use a shaper do. Keep a spiral bound notebook with detailed notes on each cutter, and the height from the table top, to a known section of the cutter,it was set at for a project. Invest in a dial indicator, or and iGauge, and you're set. I can measure the thickness of a piece of wood, and have my cutters easily set to within .010 before I even do the first test cut, because I know the geometry of each cutter. After that it's just math, even for the dreaded 45 degree lock miter, and reversible glue joint cutters. Guys that do production work have DRO's, instead of dial indicators, but that's a bit beyond me.
    A quality dial indicator, and caliper, are must have tools for a shaper. No reason they shouldn't be for a router table. With these two tools you could easily reset a router bit to within thoudsandth's of the original setup. It could be 10 miutes later, or 10 years later, it doesn't matter because you kept notes on each project to refer back to.
    The best fence systems I have ever seen for a router table are the models from Incra. Jointech used to have some great fence systems, but they're out of business now I think. It's not that JessEm and Kreg and the rest don't have nice equipment. They really do, but that Incra system is a rock solid, heavy duty, piece of equipment. If Incra ever makes the same system for a shaper, I'll be the first order.
    Last edited by Mike Cutler; 10-13-2019 at 10:01 AM.
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