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Thread: learning about insert cutters

  1. #1
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    learning about insert cutters

    Hi again all, I have gotten some great advice so far from the all the ppl on the forum yet I still some questions.

    First of all are all insert rail and stile cutters made to be on one tool? Online all i see so far are rail and stile stacked. I cant see how you can produce fast when having to reset your tool when you switch?

    The other question along these lines are do they make a 3/4 bore insert rail and stile setup?

  2. #2
    Hi Andy, not totally sure I understand what you mean, but the multi-part tools like you have are quite popular. I use limiter heads for rail and stile work and have the cope and sticking on one knife so resetting just requires adjusting the spindle height. Like this:

    Regardless, typically all the sticking is run at once in one production run, and then the copes are done all at once (or the other way around, depending on how you like to work) so there's only one change up.

    B
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  3. #3
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    They make both types. The better single knife heads allows coping and sticking with just a height change. I prefer 3 heads (left cope, right cope and sticking)





    Last edited by Jared Sankovich; 09-27-2019 at 4:13 PM.

  4. #4
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    Stacked tooling is plenty fast if you have accurate DRO on your machine (.0005 resolution). By far the fastest is several dedicated machines that once dialed in you never move them. You can bush down any tooling if your feeds and machine horsepower will handle the cutters. You can look at setups like the Stark small shop set that are precision aluminum so they dont require the HP of an 1 1/4 or 30mm spindle machine.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  5. #5
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    Stark is good bang for the buck.

    Insert cutters are also nice because the carbide formulation is sharper because it does not have to withstand brazing. So cuts are nice and clean. It is possible to remove and hone the faces on a diamond stone to squeeze a bit more life out of them, but they do last a long time.

    The pro tip for a stack of cutters for cope and stick is to make a sled high enough that you can switch back and forth without moving the spindle height. Just shim between cutters so that it aligns properly. And use a fence clamped to the table to run the sticking rather than fiddle with the split fence. Now you can control the finished width of the parts and not worry about snipe. You can make some spacers to allow you to remove and reset as needed very quickly. The main shaper fence will then just control how much material gets removed from the rail ends during the cope. You need to build this into your formula for making a cutlist and can pretty easily calibrate it so that all of your door widths are spot on.
    JR

  6. #6
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    JR beat me to it. Fastest is a stack with a sled matched to the cope knife height. No need for a dro, but a dial indicator on stand really helps setups

  7. #7
    Ah, now I understand what you mean. Yes the elevated coping sled is a nice idea because you always think you're done with a settup before you notice that one piece that needs to be replaced! Nice to not lose your settings.

    B
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy photenas View Post
    The other question along these lines are do they make a 3/4 bore insert rail and stile setup?
    CMT makes 3/4" Aluminum insert blocks.
    You might want to consider using a 3/4"-1-1/4" T-bushing adapter, and buy 1-1/4" aluminum insert blocks. This standardizes your tooling, and the mass of the aluminum block is much less than steel, so the wear and tear on the bearings of lighter duty machine is less.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Cutler View Post
    CMT makes 3/4" Aluminum insert blocks.
    You might want to consider using a 3/4"-1-1/4" T-bushing adapter, and buy 1-1/4" aluminum insert blocks. This standardizes your tooling, and the mass of the aluminum block is much less than steel, so the wear and tear on the bearings of lighter duty machine is less.
    And when you ultimately upgrade to a heavier machine, it's readily portable to that machine.
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent stanley View Post
    Ah, now I understand what you mean. Yes the elevated coping sled is a nice idea because you always think you're done with a settup before you notice that one piece that needs to be replaced! Nice to not lose your settings.

    B
    Just my $0.02 but one thing to consider with the elevated sled issue is that before you invest in stackable tooling or move down that path, very accurately measure your machines spindle runout. Typickaly your runout will be the least at the base of the spindle. If your running a smaller machine, perhaps more of a commodity machine, you may have a touch more runout at the top of the spindle as opposed to the base. As already mentioned spindle/table alignment is also critical. But if you have a bit more runout up top on your spindle you will likley fight with any of your tooling that is up top.

    The stackable "pro" thing is usually associated with a machine that is going to perform with that setup.

    I dont have any problem with the DRO as we dont run cope and stick regularly enough to have 3 dedicated shapers and it allows all of the tooling to be down low. Its one of the main places where I have always scoffed at .001-.0005 accuracy in wood but if your trying to make a lot of something fast your in that world. you can have a $1000.00 head and inserts up top and if your dealing with a bit of runout your dead.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Just my $0.02 but one thing to consider with the elevated sled issue is that before you invest in stackable tooling or move down that path, very accurately measure your machines spindle runout. Typickaly your runout will be the least at the base of the spindle. If your running a smaller machine, perhaps more of a commodity machine, you may have a touch more runout at the top of the spindle as opposed to the base. As already mentioned spindle/table alignment is also critical. But if you have a bit more runout up top on your spindle you will likley fight with any of your tooling that is up top.

    The stackable "pro" thing is usually associated with a machine that is going to perform with that setup.

    I dont have any problem with the DRO as we dont run cope and stick regularly enough to have 3 dedicated shapers and it allows all of the tooling to be down low. Its one of the main places where I have always scoffed at .001-.0005 accuracy in wood but if your trying to make a lot of something fast your in that world. you can have a $1000.00 head and inserts up top and if your dealing with a bit of runout your dead.
    Yes, good advice. I like the idea but personally have switched over to the Aigner contormax and really like it.
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent stanley View Post
    And when you ultimately upgrade to a heavier machine, it's readily portable to that machine.
    Brent
    Exactly.
    One other point is if you decide to sell the block, or cutters,down the line. Plenty of 3/4" tooling on ebay, craigslist, and the like. The 1-1/4" tooling gets snapped up fairly quick.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  13. #13
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    DAMHIKT. I foolishly bought a CMT head with a 1'' bore to match the largest spindle on my small Steel city shaper. Now I need another 1 1/4 head for my Minimax. At least it was only a hundred bucks,could have been worse...

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kees View Post
    DAMHIKT. I foolishly bought a CMT head with a 1'' bore to match the largest spindle on my small Steel city shaper. Now I need another 1 1/4 head for my Minimax. At least it was only a hundred bucks,could have been worse...
    You might be able to have it bored.
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  15. #15
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    Ok Brent,where would you take it to get it bored ? Machine shop ?

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