Thanks Phil- can you explain the difference between diamond & ceramic?Originally Posted by Phil Mueller
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Thanks Phil- can you explain the difference between diamond & ceramic?
Friend of the Creek
I think technically ceramics are synthetic sapphire, but regardless, I think of them as more of a finish stone. I have no experience with any ceramic other than the ultra fine. Here’s a chart I’ve used as a reference to sort of compare grit/micron size of various materials, although I can’t vouch for its accuracy.
http://www.sharpeningmadeeasy.com/grits.htm
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When I think "Ceramic bench stone", I think things such as Spyderco.
See this link, for example:
https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/S...Fine-P300.aspx
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Thanks mucho Phil!
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Andrew- thanks! I’ll check those out.
Contributor
People I know who have tried Ceramic were usually looking for something similar to a water stone but would not need much flattening. Also, I have generally only considered diamond stones for rough sharpening since my fine stones left scratches even on the fine stones. It was suggested to me that if I wore them down these would go away and I have known at least one professional sharpener who claimed to only use diamonds because of their speed.
The following link has a nice pro/con section for each type.
https://www.kmesharp.com/faqknsh.html
They claim that Ceramic stones can be made from various materials like silicon carbide (carberundum), or aluminum oxide (India and water stones), CBN (cubit boron nitride) or other abrasive materials. Although you can follow the link:
I believe that the Spyderco medium is about 1000 gritt, fine is 2500, and the ultrafine about 4000 grit, but there is some disagreement I think. UF is 3 micron, but different cutting medium might act like a different grit maybe. I think that a DMT extra-fine is about 9 micron, so even the extra-fine DMT has a larger grit size then the 6 micron spyderco fine. I do not now how that translates into cutting speed or polish. Spyderco medium is 15 micron.Diamonds vs. Ceramic and Arkansas stones:These are basic guidelines for stone selection. There are many variables though, like exactly how dull is the blade? Do we need to remove a lot of stock to develop the bevels? and how hard is the steel itself?
Diamond stone Pros:
Diamond stones are far more aggressive than either ceramics or Arkansas stones. The coarser grit diamonds are great for rapid stock removal and for taking an edge from dead blunt to very sharp quickly. Diamonds are the best choice for sharpening blades made from very hard steels with Rockwell hardness above the mid 50s. A coarse or x-coarse diamond can be worth its weight in gold when sharpening/restoring severely damaged blades.
Diamonds are also a good choice for people who are new to sharpening and those who consider themselves to be “sharpening impaired”. This is because diamonds produce very good results quickly.
Diamond Stone Cons:
While diamond stones are great for speed sharpening, they’re not as good as fine ceramics or Arkansas for the final polishing needed to develop a true surgical edge. Diamonds are more expensive than either ceramic or Arkansas stones and contrary to popular belief they do wear out and will need to be replaced from time to time.
Note: While it’s never a good idea to push on any stone while sharpening in order to speed things up, this is particularly true with diamond stones. Diamond stones are manufactured by literally soldering diamond particles to a steel substrate (electroplating). Applying excessive pressure while sharpening will quickly destroy the stones by dislodging the particles. Use a light touch and let the stones do the work.
Arkansas Stones Pros:
Arkansas stones are polishing stones. A basic Hard Arkansas is still one of the best polishing stones available. They are inexpensive and very long lasting. Very fine grit Arkansas stones like the black or translucent will polish blade bevels far beyond factory sharp.
Arkansas Stone Cons:
Arkansas stones are not intended for rapid stock removal but, for polishing and refining an edge to surgically sharp. If you were to take a very dull blade and try to sharpen it using only an Arkansas stone you would spend hours trying to get the blade sharp but would likely only succeed in polishing the dull edge. You need to finish "grinding" or “profiling” the edge first with something more aggressive like a diamond stone or coarse ceramic.
Ceramic Stones:
Ceramic stones are kind of the middle ground between the diamonds and the Arkansas. They come in a wide variety of grits and can be made from various materials like silicon carbide (carberundum), or aluminum oxide (India and water stones), CBN (cubit boron nitride) or other abrasive materials.
The standard stones (ceramic and Arkansas) are our "go to" stones for any blade that is even remotely sharp to begin with. The X-coarse silicon carbide is a very aggressive stock removal stone but it will wear quickly. Use this stone for quickly reprofiling the bevels on extremely dull blades. The coarse aluminum oxide ceramics are pretty aggressive and the fine side is reasonably fine. Diamonds stones, files, or automotive wet/dry sandpaper are better choices for fast stock removal, then go to the ceramics and finish with the Arkansas.
Spyderco has a good reputation and they have been doing this a while.
I think that Spyderco should be used dry.
One person i talked to said that his spyderco UF produces a very nice edge. I think I even have an unopened one that I bought to try and just never got around to trying.
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Come on up to the Dungeon....and see how I get on...
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Andrew, I have been using the Spyderco Medium and UltraFine ceramic stones for several years. I never use them dry - in fact I would never use any abrasive medium dry as the swarf must be carried away to prevent the surface clogging. My choice is water with a touch of liquid soap.
These stones need flattening when new. I have written about this before. Mine did not require much, and then have stayed flat. I clean them with a little Simple Green and an abrasive pad. Takes seconds and produces a stone that cuts better.
Spyderco do not publish grit-equivalents for their stones. The Medium I have sharpens like a 3000 stone (which requires a lower grit stone to begin the honing process - I generally use a Shapton Pro 1000), while the UF leaves a polished surface similar to 6-8000. I generally finish with a few swipes on green compound on hardwood.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Contributor
You're the man, Steve.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Contributor
Sharpening has been my never ending project...
Some great information here...
I went through lots of diamond plates from DMT, as others correctly point out, they sure do dull fast if used often, they start out great. If u only have a few chisels and planes, maybe not a bad move, specially if you dont sharpen that often.
I also agree, the wet stones, oil or water, are unbeatable for surgical like edges.
I tried powered sharpeners as well, IMO, they all have issues, and u gotta go through lots of grits, which requies constantly changing of the belts, wheels, etc. Sometimes not bad for touch up, where u have two grits available.
The sandpaper on float glass or granite slab is a great and low cost alternative, u gotta by the sandpaper in bulk, or that can get very expensive as well, as its easy to dull a peice of sand paper. But at least u are assured the flatness of the glass or granite, with NO maintenance, i.e. constantly flateening the stones.
I just dulled a diamond plate that flattened my stones which is $400 from Shapton, so you can get into some serious cost this way with wet stones.
IMO, if someone is starting out, and is on a budget, but wants surgical sharpness, I think the most cost effective and one of the best methods is using diamond paste. Buy some nice High quality, MDF, maybe 1/2" or 3/4 if cheaper, cut it in sizes that work for your sharpening needs, similar to the stone sizes. Then buy the diamond pastes on ebay dirt cheap, it works very well, almost as good as the brand names paste. Put a handful of MDF's out, spread all the grits you want, and just move up the grits. The diamond paste comes in small syringes, easy to control output. The MDF is very flat, the diamond stones in the paste, embed in the MDF, and if you dont push down hard, (like u shouldnt anyway) you can easily sharpen 2-5 tools per MDF, then toss, put some fresh MDF down. A 4x8 MDF sheet makes a LOT of flat surfaces for minimal cost. A little paste goes a long way. If you perfect this system, u can get the blades nearly as sharp as my best Shapton water stones that go to 30K grit.
If I did not have so much invested in expensive Shapton stones, I would move to this system. Once my Shaptons wear out, I will move to the MDF system. fast, less mess, and low cost, with results almost on par with the best of the stones. Just like sandpaper, u can have any grit you need to start, from rough sharpening to fine tuning an edge. You only have to wipe the edge clean with a paper towel, before moving to the next girt.. so its fast. No flatenning, no water or oil, no buying new diamond plates constantly, no buying new flattening stones, argggg....
this was another expensive lesson!
Contributor
Regarding diamond plates ....
I have some DMT and Eze-Lap plates, and some of these are 15-20 years old. And still cutting. Certainly, not as they did when new, but the point I want to make is that the way they cut when new is not representative of how they generally cut once "broken in".
I have also played with diamond paste for many years. It can work really well, but needs special plates for different grits, and there is a danger of contamination, so wipe carefully. I have only used the oil based variety, and this can get messy if you do not wipe down the plates well after the initial charging. The "must" is to use cast iron if possible. MDF or leather and the like are not recommended as they will need frequent re-charging.
The Spyderco ceramic stones are the closest to minimal fuss. When I take them to shows for demos, I simply carry a couple of wet sponges for wiping down. The system is a worn Eze-lap 600 (acts more like 2000 grit), Medium and Ultra Fine Spyderco, and finish with green compound scribbled on hardwood. A superior system for hand sharpening.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Member
Will & Derek thanks for your input! Obviously sharpening is something one needs to experiment with to find what works best for them. Having input from those with experience can help keep costs to a minimum and avoid “reinventing the wheel”.
Contributor
Derek is right, when using MDF, u use ONE grit per 3x6" mdf sheet. You use an mdf for a few blades, and toss it out. A 4x8 sheet of MDF will yield about 250 usable flat surfaces, or about $.10 each. Hard to beat economicaly wise, and it is very effective. Also, buy a good quality MDF that was laying flat, bring it home and cut it, before you stand on its side for some time, allowing it to develop a small buckle.
A good alternative, and even flatter is the a granite surface stone, Grizzly has a nice selection, some on Amazon as well. Most are flat to about 2.5 microns, or .0002"... that is beyond what is needed for sharpening. they run from $85 w shipping to more, based on the size u buy. If u dont sharpen a lot, and you can buy the sand paper cheap enough, this will work as well as any method for sure. Just a heads-up on sand paper vs. stones. Stones just keep cutting...the higher grit sand papers wear FAST! I often replace them every blade. Be sure to buy wet sandpaper, cover your granite fully with sand paper, as if you get the grit on the granite, u can erode the granite over time, defeating reducing its flatness. water under the paper will make it adhere well enough, than the added pressure of the sharpening keeps in place. Klingspor has a nice selection of papers to choose from. If the sandpaper lasted longer, this would be the most cost effective method of sharpening.
Member
Will, they used to call that the “scary sharp” method and I have been using it for a long time. I bought the granite block at a local WW store about 10 years ago for about $25. I’ve been using wet/dry sandpaper but you’re right it dulls pretty fast and tears easily when wet. 2000G will produce a pretty good mirror finish but I really don’t know it it’s as sharp as you can get with diamond or an Arkansas stone.
Contributor
I think u can get it as sharp using SS system, IF, u keep changing the paperVery tedious on the higher grits...
What I learned is, while Shapton stones are costly, they are high quality and cut my A2 blades great, the stone needs to be matched to the type of steel u are sharpening for optimum results, Shapton reps will help with this.... but when I consider how much sandpaper I would have gone through vs. the amount I dig into these stones, I would be horrified. These ceramic water stones seem to last forever. NOt sure about the arkansas stones, never used them, prefer water, easier clean up for me as I have a sink at my sharpening area. I also learned with the water stones, soak them for 3 hrs before using, they cut much better. I used to just wet em during use... mistake...
A lot of this comes down to how much sharpening someone will do...
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