Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 67

Thread: Cold creep in modified PVA glues?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    WNY
    Posts
    6,125
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    Seems the only one part option with no Formaldahyde (reasonably speaking) is PU which sucks for the mess. Im running epoxy as well as opposed to UF but I dont know which is worse for mess, epoxy or PU. If you can get pretty accurate with PU the mess can be minimized but without a doubt if you wanting to ensure full coverage there is no way around it. Epoxy is really no better in that regard so I have been holding epoxy back for the most extreme situations.
    Mark, are you aware that white vinegar cleans up wet epoxy easily and completely? I never knew that until I read it on the back of a System Three T-88 bottle.

    John

  2. #17
    It's when you have a good joint, usually an old glue joint that you can run your hand over the joint and feel the seem raised.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Phoenix AZ
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    Cold creep is shear (displacement) of the glued surfaces at room temperature, and happens when the shear stress exceeds the creep strength of the glue. It's often seen with joints that go out of alignment with changes in seasonal expansion/contraction of pieces that are glued together, like in a tabletop, or parts made up from laminated pieces. Another case is in bent laminations that try to straighten out with time.

    Your furniture is not likely to fall apart, but if it does it will do so slowly if cold creep is the problem. But don't take anything you made with TB glues in bent laminations out in the hot sun as Mark pointed out.

    And for those using epoxy in exterior projects, as I often do, recognize that many of them including West Systems loose substantial strength at elevated temperature, similar to PVA glues.

    John
    Thanks John, don’t know why I’ve never heard of this. I thought these things were due to expansion/contraction of the wood itself.

    Just ran across this article: http://brownellfurniture.com/factors...n-woodworking/

    Will longer clamping times reduce the amount of creep?
    Last edited by Mark Daily; 09-10-2019 at 8:33 PM.
    ďPay no attention to what you cannot control..Ē Epictetus, 100 A.D.
    It costs nothing to be kind to others

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Okotoks AB
    Posts
    1,287
    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    Mark, are you aware that white vinegar cleans up wet epoxy easily and completely? I never knew that until I read it on the back of a System Three T-88 bottle.

    John
    I did not know that, and it will be a bit of a game changer for me when using epoxy. Thanks for posting.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    East Virginia
    Posts
    730
    Just be sure to wash it off your hands ASAP...as I understand it, the vinegar emulsifies/makes the amines water-soluble, increasing chances for skin sensitization...

    Gojo Orange is also good for cleaning up green/wet epoxy.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    WNY
    Posts
    6,125
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Daily View Post
    Thanks John, donít know why Iíve never heard of this. I thought these things were due to expansion/contraction of the wood itself.

    Just ran across this article: http://brownellfurniture.com/factors...n-woodworking/

    Will longer clamping times reduce the amount of creep?
    Leaving the joints clamped long enough to assure the glue has dried sufficiently is always a good idea but it won't prevent creep afterwards. It's an inherent property of the glue itself. If you want to minimize creep use a glue with better creep resistance.

    John

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Waterford, PA
    Posts
    234
    What, pray tell, is PU?

    Why do we have to use acronyms? It makes reading posts so difficult sometimes. And who wants to have to search anywhere to figure out what somebody said?

    I know as soon as somebody says what PU means I’ll say, “Aha, I should have guessed that."

    But right now what is PU, please? Have mercy.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    2,144
    PU: polyurethane glue...best known is Gorilla Glue.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Waterford, PA
    Posts
    234
    Thank you.

  10. #25
    So let's keep this in perspective folks, the "creep" that a glue like titebond 1 exhibits has almost no detrimental effect on most of the woodworking that most folks here do. It says not to use it for structural applications, but that refers to something like laminating roof beams for a hockey arena, not the structure of an entertainment center. Yes, it does creep a little between wood with different grain orientation, but that is probably more helpful than not given the other option is joint failure or cracked wood. When you add in the low toxicity, low cost, and ease of use, it makes sense that it is as popular as it is (and that is from someone who had a hide-glue-snob phase).

    Stringed instrument makers encounter forces much higher than most case good woodworkers, and though there is raging debate amongst makers about glue, most instrument makers when cornered, will say that the instruments they made in their early days with titebond have held up just fine.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    6,095
    Blog Entries
    7
    I agree with Andrew.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  12. #27
    Random thought about this
    Does thickness of a table or more importantly a workbench come into the equation.
    I was thinking of laminating my bench with hide but chose regular Titebond in the end.
    Wondering if you folks think a workbench is less likely to creep at 4" thick?
    Not that I'd be getting it wet or in the sun, but for interests sake.

    Tom

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    4,674
    I use West System for bent laminations, and yes it can be messy. One thing I do to make my life easier is use the protective film you would use on a construction site for floors, self adhering, on the top of the bench. strait laminations with no stress, Titebond II.

    I also use that same plastic film to line the curved cauls.
    Last edited by Larry Edgerton; 09-12-2019 at 6:45 AM.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zona View Post
    Why do we have to use acronyms?
    Unfortunately there is an acronym in the subject line... sorry ;-) They are everywhere and its simply faster and easier than typing out urea formaldehyde to type UF in an adhesive thread. Or some may just reference it as Unibond? Same with PVA and Polyvinyl Acetate, or CA and CyanoAcrylate. Or are we suppose to type PU-Polyurethane-(glue not the finish)-Gorilla Glue every time we reference PU?

    Its life. Searching is good. You find lots of other information along the way.

    It'll be ok ;-)
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Seemann View Post
    So let's keep this in perspective folks, the "creep" that a glue like titebond 1 exhibits has almost no detrimental effect on most of the woodworking that most folks here do. It says not to use it for structural applications, but that refers to something like laminating roof beams for a hockey arena, not the structure of an entertainment center. Yes, it does creep a little between wood with different grain orientation, but that is probably more helpful than not given the other option is joint failure or cracked wood. When you add in the low toxicity, low cost, and ease of use, it makes sense that it is as popular as it is (and that is from someone who had a hide-glue-snob phase).

    Stringed instrument makers encounter forces much higher than most case good woodworkers, and though there is raging debate amongst makers about glue, most instrument makers when cornered, will say that the instruments they made in their early days with titebond have held up just fine.
    I've made quite a few laminated parts for projects, including rockers for several rocking chairs, using Titebond glue and none of them show any "creep".

    During one of my visits to Sam Maloof, I asked Sam what he used for the laminations for his rockers (the actual "skates" or rockers). He pointed to a shelf with several bottles of Titebond glue, from Titebond I to Titebond III and said, "I choose which one to use by the color of the wood."

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •