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Thread: Berkeley bans natural gas in new homes

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  1. #1
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    Berkeley bans natural gas in new homes

    Berkeley California just banned natural gas in new homes. This is supposed to reduce carbon emissions . Of course the local power company still burns coal to make a good percentage of the electrical. They are building new gas fired power plants to meet demand. I wonder if clothes dryers are already banned. They will pay someone $273,000 to check plans for no gas.
    Bill D.
    PS very few new homes get built in Berkeley anyway. I wonder if they plan to turn off the gas furnaces in all the public buildings and give them personnel electric heaters instead.

  2. #2
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    FYI there is one coal fired power plant in the entire state of California a 6 1/2 hour drive from Berkeley built in 1978 and it produces 0.2% of the electrical capacity. Also California is phasing out gas fired power plants as they cannot compete with solar and wind. Yes there are some under construction but there are more retirements than new construction.
    https://archinect.com/news/article/1...oming-obsolete
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1Q12C9

  3. #3
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    I did not know they were so low in buying coal power these days.
    Bill D
    Last edited by Lee Schierer; 08-29-2019 at 8:07 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    I did not know they were so low in buying coal power these days.
    Bill D
    California and much of the west coast is powered by hydroelectric and nuclear.


    jtk
    Last edited by Lee Schierer; 08-29-2019 at 8:08 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Garson View Post
    FYI there is one coal fired power plant in the entire state of California a 6 1/2 hour drive from Berkeley built in 1978 and it produces 0.2% of the electrical capacity. Also California is phasing out gas fired power plants as they cannot compete with solar and wind. Yes there are some under construction but there are more retirements than new construction.
    https://archinect.com/news/article/1...oming-obsolete
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1Q12C9
    CA is the largest importer of electricity in the nation, 15 terrawatts? something like that. their fossil fuel percentage when you factor in imports is still over 35%

    a lot of that is from Wyoming, where they burn the coal next to the mine and have transmission lines going directly to CA.

    anything to outsource the bad stuff, and then feel all high and mighty when you say you only have 1 coal plant left in the state, then turn around and crap on all the people and industry that actually supplies your standard of living.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Herman View Post
    CA is the largest importer of electricity in the nation, 15 terrawatts? something like that. their fossil fuel percentage when you factor in imports is still over 35%

    a lot of that is from Wyoming, where they burn the coal next to the mine and have transmission lines going directly to CA.

    anything to outsource the bad stuff, and then feel all high and mighty when you say you only have 1 coal plant left in the state, then turn around and crap on all the people and industry that actually supplies your standard of living.
    Setting aside the unfounded commentary on the mind-set of the people who passed the ordinance, let's look at the facts. Berkeley has opted in to a source of electric power that is 100% carbon-free, so they are not getting their electricity from your fossil fuel plants: cite. As a city, Berkeley does not have the authority to change California's sources of power, much less the energy policy of the United States. It is doing what it can within those limits to fight climate change. You can call these people naive, but I call them realistic. I'd call them farsighted, but it doesn't take much in the way of foresight to see that we need to change our ways to address the coming crisis.

    Note to the moderators: if the discussion up to this point was not political and prohibited, I don't see how my post can be. Just some necessary factual corrective.

  7. #7
    While this is not about natural gas, I expect to see serious limits being put on the sale of gasoline powered personal vehicles within the next several years. Prices of electric vehicles are coming down, availability of charging stations is improving and the vehicles are pollution free (the pollution is at a electricity generating station where it can be better controlled). More and more solar and wind generation is coming on line and electricity storage is improving for nighttime availability.

    I expect that large trucks will continue to be diesel for quite a while.

    Mike
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  8. #8
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    Wow. I thought natural gas was more efficient than electric and therefore better overall for the environment. Not saying I’m right, but that’s what I thought. Locally we don’t have natural gas but we have LPG and I converted my stove and water heater to LPG and am saving over $100 a month with that and LED bulbs. (Note: we have the second highest electric rate in the world so for me it’s a bigger cost savings). Our location burns diesel for power and recently converted to LPG. My opinion is that creating heat at the source from LPG is better than the power company converting it to electricity and then me concerting the electricity into heat.

    BTW- just got a quote to go solar off the grid and ditch the power company except for backup.

  9. #9
    My problem with all-electric is that, around here at least, the power company already wants us all to let them put power limiters on our lines that THEY control. Supposed to help stop brown-outs during hot days when everyone's AC is on full-blast. NEWS FLASH, I'm PAYING you for the electricity I need to keep my house cool, I DON'T want LESS electricity on hot days, I want MORE!

    And for reference, with my home business power usage, my monthly average power use is around 3300kw, while my neighbor's average is about 600kw. I can't have my power dropped and keep working all day.

    What's scary is, if they can't supply our area's power needs NOW without brownout protections in place, what if everyone around here just suddenly decided to go all-electric? And those Tesla's and Prius's don't charge themselves...
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Williams View Post
    My problem with all-electric is that, around here at least, the power company already wants us all to let them put power limiters on our lines that THEY control. Supposed to help stop brown-outs during hot days when everyone's AC is on full-blast. NEWS FLASH, I'm PAYING you for the electricity I need to keep my house cool, I DON'T want LESS electricity on hot days, I want MORE!

    And for reference, with my home business power usage, my monthly average power use is around 3300kw, while my neighbor's average is about 600kw. I can't have my power dropped and keep working all day.

    What's scary is, if they can't supply our area's power needs NOW without brownout protections in place, what if everyone around here just suddenly decided to go all-electric? And those Tesla's and Prius's don't charge themselves...
    The thing about electric cars charged at home is that they're generally charged overnight when electricity demand is significantly lower. Most electric companies have rates that strongly encourage you to charge at night.

    The problem for electric companies is that they have to install generating and transmission capacity for the peak demand. At night, demand is low. If they can spread out the demand, such as charging electric cars at night, they become more efficient.

    Mike

    [And just a side note - homes that install solar help the electric company by either supplying power back to the grid, or at least reducing or eliminating the power taken from the grid by that home during the hottest part of the day. Solar on the home is a way of helping the power company smooth out their demand problem.]

    [The power company can build generating and transmission systems that are capable of supplying all the power you'd want on the days of the highest demand. But a lot of that generating and transmission capability would be wasted most of the year. And if they did do that, you (the customer) would have to pay more for your electricity all year long to support that extra capacity. The power company uses those limiting systems to reduce your power costs.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 08-29-2019 at 10:33 PM.
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  11. #11
    I think any complete conversion to renewables (wind/solar/tidal*) is vitally dependent on grid scale electrical storage, which basically doesn't currently exist due to cost and lack of supporting technology. Tho' I did read an article once about a UPS system for a US Navy warship..... forgotten the specs, but would hold up the entire ship's critical systems for something like 1-2 hours (i.e. CIC, radar, CIWS). I'm sure we could all afford one for the home & shop!!

    A user 'community' has to either store it when produced, or turn the lights out when its not produced. Humans have fought the darkness for millennia. Hard to picture us going backward.

    Everybody gasps at the mention, but nuclear has so many newer, safer implementations of reactors - some even self modulating IIRC - but a US license hasn't been issued in something like 30-35 years??

    * I don't count hydro, since its sort of impossible to put the water back in the system upstream of the generating station. And sometimes it doesn't rain.
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 08-29-2019 at 9:22 PM. Reason: typo

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm McLeod View Post
    I think any complete conversion to renewables (wind/solar/tidal*) is vitally dependent on grid scale electrical storage, which basically doesn't currently exist due to cost and lack of supporting technology. Tho' I did read an article once about a UPS system for a US Navy warship..... forgotten the specs, but would hold up the entire ship's critical systems for something like 1-2 hours (i.e. CIC, radar, CIWS). I'm sure we could all afford one for the home & shop!!

    A user 'community' has to either store it when produced, or turn the lights out when its not produced. Humans have fought the darkness for millennia. Hard to picture us going backward.

    Everybody gasps at the mention, but nuclear has so many newer, safer implementations of reactors - some even self modulating IIRC - but a US license hasn't been issued in something like 30-35 years??

    * I don't count hydro, since its sort of impossible to put the water back in the system upstream of the generating station. And sometimes it doesn't rain.
    Agree with some of what you say but I think you are wrong two points. One, hydro is a renewable energy source. Yes in theory a drought could reduce the ability to generate power but at least in North America, hydro is one of if not the most reliable form of power generation. Two, a grid based on renewable energy is not a step backwards and can supply power 24/7. Norway's grid is supplied 98% by renewables, Canada's grid is 67% renewable and 82% non greenhouse gas producing (ie renewable + nuclear).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Garson View Post
    Agree with some of what you say but I think you are wrong two points. One, hydro is a renewable energy source. Yes in theory a drought could reduce the ability to generate power but at least in North America, hydro is one of if not the most reliable form of power generation. Two, a grid based on renewable energy is not a step backwards and can supply power 24/7. Norway's grid is supplied 98% by renewables, Canada's grid is 67% renewable and 82% non greenhouse gas producing (ie renewable + nuclear).
    No argument that hydro is reliable. But reliable and renewable are different. See other post about 'pumped hydro' -- also very possible, also very inefficient, also very expensive.

    Renewable energy IS a step backward IF we have to live in the dark (my point). Ignore climate for a moment, and read up on the economic impact of this darkness.

    IF solar/wind/tidal is to supply power 24/7 (no darkness!), one of perhaps 3 things needs to be incorporated:
    1. We need a global grid (sun always shines somewhere; wind is usually blowing somewhere; tides are flowing ...somewhere);
    2. We need to produce in excess of any instantaneous demand AND have grid-scale storage;
    3. We supplement with 'scary' power sources.

    Anything is possible.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Garson View Post
    Agree with some of what you say but I think you are wrong two points. One, hydro is a renewable energy source. Yes in theory a drought could reduce the ability to generate power but at least in North America, hydro is one of if not the most reliable form of power generation. Two, a grid based on renewable energy is not a step backwards and can supply power 24/7. Norway's grid is supplied 98% by renewables, Canada's grid is 67% renewable and 82% non greenhouse gas producing (ie renewable + nuclear).
    Iceland is 100% renewable electricity - 87% from hydro power and 13% from geothermal. They also pipe hot (geothermal) water through the streets of Reykjavik to homes to heat the homes (they charge for the hot water). They also use it to melt the snow in the streets.

    Not everyone has that much hydro, of course, but we're going more and more renewable. Regarding pumping water back into a reservoir at night - it's just a form of energy storage and is a way of storing excess electricity at night. It's difficult to modulate some of the big power generating stations so storing some of that excess electricity in the form of water in a reservoir is a good thing. It's no different than if we had giant batteries that we could charge at night.

    Perhaps one day we'll have solar arrays that do nothing but power pumps that pump water during the day back into a reservoir so that the water can be use for hydro power at night. Then perhaps we wouldn't need those coal and natural gas generating plants.

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 08-30-2019 at 2:28 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm McLeod View Post

    Everybody gasps at the mention, but nuclear has so many newer, safer implementations of reactors - some even self modulating IIRC - but a US license hasn't been issued in something like 30-35 years??

    * I don't count hydro, since its sort of impossible to put the water back in the system upstream of the generating station. And sometimes it doesn't rain.
    On nuclear, the navy has some robust reactor designs, and trains folks to run them too.

    There are several implementations of two level reservoirs for storage of renewables such as solar. Look up pumped storage hydroelectricity. There is about 25 GW capacity in the US and 184 GW worldwide
    Last edited by John Stankus; 08-30-2019 at 8:19 AM.

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