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Thread: Berkeley bans natural gas in new homes

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    What about the theory of Hydrogen made for renewable power? How will that get shipped through non existent pipes?
    I will also add they are not considering the carbon impact of replacing a electric heat pump every few decades. My floor furnace was made in 1948 and still works fine. of course the efficiency is no as high as newer models that require elctricity. In Berkeley no homes have air conditioning just furnaces.
    Bill D.
    Wow, a 1948 "floor furnace" (what's that?) still working. I'm impressed, my oldest working thing (other than my 1949 body) is a 1954 Delta Homecraft drill press.

  2. #32
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    I think any complete conversion to renewables (wind/solar/tidal*) is vitally dependent on grid scale electrical storage, which basically doesn't currently exist due to cost and lack of supporting technology. Tho' I did read an article once about a UPS system for a US Navy warship..... forgotten the specs, but would hold up the entire ship's critical systems for something like 1-2 hours (i.e. CIC, radar, CIWS). I'm sure we could all afford one for the home & shop!!

    A user 'community' has to either store it when produced, or turn the lights out when its not produced. Humans have fought the darkness for millennia. Hard to picture us going backward.

    Everybody gasps at the mention, but nuclear has so many newer, safer implementations of reactors - some even self modulating IIRC - but a US license hasn't been issued in something like 30-35 years??

    * I don't count hydro, since its sort of impossible to put the water back in the system upstream of the generating station. And sometimes it doesn't rain.
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 08-29-2019 at 9:22 PM. Reason: typo
    Molann an obair an saor.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Williams View Post
    My problem with all-electric is that, around here at least, the power company already wants us all to let them put power limiters on our lines that THEY control. Supposed to help stop brown-outs during hot days when everyone's AC is on full-blast. NEWS FLASH, I'm PAYING you for the electricity I need to keep my house cool, I DON'T want LESS electricity on hot days, I want MORE!

    And for reference, with my home business power usage, my monthly average power use is around 3300kw, while my neighbor's average is about 600kw. I can't have my power dropped and keep working all day.

    What's scary is, if they can't supply our area's power needs NOW without brownout protections in place, what if everyone around here just suddenly decided to go all-electric? And those Tesla's and Prius's don't charge themselves...
    Bet the same was said about gasoline when Henry Ford introduced mass production of automobiles with gasoline powered engines.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Garson View Post
    Bet the same was said about gasoline when Henry Ford introduced mass production of automobiles with gasoline powered engines.
    I have always heard the story told that Henry picked gasoline-fueled ICEs because 'gasoline' was the light weight condensate from crude and not desirable for anything - much too volatile and dangerous - and so it was CHEAP! Ford's introduction came close on the heels of the Spindletop discovery and the resulting drop in oil prices.
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 08-29-2019 at 10:38 PM.
    Molann an obair an saor.

  5. #35
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    Well electric stoves were invented before gas stoves were invented in California around 1910?
    Bill D

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm McLeod View Post
    I think any complete conversion to renewables (wind/solar/tidal*) is vitally dependent on grid scale electrical storage, which basically doesn't currently exist due to cost and lack of supporting technology. Tho' I did read an article once about a UPS system for a US Navy warship..... forgotten the specs, but would hold up the entire ship's critical systems for something like 1-2 hours (i.e. CIC, radar, CIWS). I'm sure we could all afford one for the home & shop!!

    A user 'community' has to either store it when produced, or turn the lights out when its not produced. Humans have fought the darkness for millennia. Hard to picture us going backward.

    Everybody gasps at the mention, but nuclear has so many newer, safer implementations of reactors - some even self modulating IIRC - but a US license hasn't been issued in something like 30-35 years??

    * I don't count hydro, since its sort of impossible to put the water back in the system upstream of the generating station. And sometimes it doesn't rain.
    Agree with some of what you say but I think you are wrong two points. One, hydro is a renewable energy source. Yes in theory a drought could reduce the ability to generate power but at least in North America, hydro is one of if not the most reliable form of power generation. Two, a grid based on renewable energy is not a step backwards and can supply power 24/7. Norway's grid is supplied 98% by renewables, Canada's grid is 67% renewable and 82% non greenhouse gas producing (ie renewable + nuclear).

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm McLeod View Post

    Everybody gasps at the mention, but nuclear has so many newer, safer implementations of reactors - some even self modulating IIRC - but a US license hasn't been issued in something like 30-35 years??

    * I don't count hydro, since its sort of impossible to put the water back in the system upstream of the generating station. And sometimes it doesn't rain.
    On nuclear, the navy has some robust reactor designs, and trains folks to run them too.

    There are several implementations of two level reservoirs for storage of renewables such as solar. Look up pumped storage hydroelectricity. There is about 25 GW capacity in the US and 184 GW worldwide
    Last edited by John Stankus; 08-30-2019 at 8:19 AM.

  8. #38
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    Propane ok?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Stankus View Post
    ...

    There are several implementations of two level reservoirs for storage of renewables such as solar. Look up pumped storage hydroelectricity. There is about 25 GW capacity in the US and 184 GW worldwide
    What is the efficiency (and so cost) of this?
    Molann an obair an saor.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Garson View Post
    Agree with some of what you say but I think you are wrong two points. One, hydro is a renewable energy source. Yes in theory a drought could reduce the ability to generate power but at least in North America, hydro is one of if not the most reliable form of power generation. Two, a grid based on renewable energy is not a step backwards and can supply power 24/7. Norway's grid is supplied 98% by renewables, Canada's grid is 67% renewable and 82% non greenhouse gas producing (ie renewable + nuclear).
    No argument that hydro is reliable. But reliable and renewable are different. See other post about 'pumped hydro' -- also very possible, also very inefficient, also very expensive.

    Renewable energy IS a step backward IF we have to live in the dark (my point). Ignore climate for a moment, and read up on the economic impact of this darkness.

    IF solar/wind/tidal is to supply power 24/7 (no darkness!), one of perhaps 3 things needs to be incorporated:
    1. We need a global grid (sun always shines somewhere; wind is usually blowing somewhere; tides are flowing ...somewhere);
    2. We need to produce in excess of any instantaneous demand AND have grid-scale storage;
    3. We supplement with 'scary' power sources.

    Anything is possible.
    You can have your project done good, fast, and cheap. Pick 2!
    How much money do you have?
    Molann an obair an saor.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wrenn View Post
    The biggest advantage (other than cost) to a gas turbine generated electricity is they can be brought on line in just a few a seconds. A coal fired plant has to be running 24/7/365.
    Yes simple cycle gas turbines are much faster than a coal fired power plant but not seconds, a GE aeroderivative LM 6000 gas turbine minimum start time is 5 min while a coal fired plant is more like 10 hours and a hydro turbine is under 2 minutes.

  12. #42
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    We are talking about California here. Let us not forget that as long as there are burritos there will be natural gas.
    Rick Potter

    DIY journeyman,
    FWW wannabe.
    AKA Village Idiot.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm McLeod View Post
    No argument that hydro is reliable. But reliable and renewable are different. See other post about 'pumped hydro' -- also very possible, also very inefficient, also very expensive.

    Renewable energy IS a step backward IF we have to live in the dark (my point). Ignore climate for a moment, and read up on the economic impact of this darkness.

    IF solar/wind/tidal is to supply power 24/7 (no darkness!), one of perhaps 3 things needs to be incorporated:
    1. We need a global grid (sun always shines somewhere; wind is usually blowing somewhere; tides are flowing ...somewhere);
    2. We need to produce in excess of any instantaneous demand AND have grid-scale storage;
    3. We supplement with 'scary' power sources.

    Anything is possible.
    You can have your project done good, fast, and cheap. Pick 2!
    How much money do you have?
    I think you are in the minority in excluding hydro from renewable power sources https://sciencing.com/facts-5778942-...resource-.html .
    Are you suggesting Norway lives in the dark? As to your comment about ignoring climate for the moment, (seriously?) I think the problem is we have been ignoring the climate for far too long.
    What's your definition of "scary" power sources? Mine includes coal fired power plants which contribute to global warming.
    You can make your power project cheaper by ignoring the cost of climate change but eventually someone has to pay. The insurance industry recognizes this. https://www.ft.com/content/92e19630-...3-48106866cd8a

  14. #44
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    In California hydro over 30 megawatts does not count as renewable. There are some proposals to pump Colorado river water 80 miles upstream using solar and wind power power to provide hydro storage on a big scale.
    Bill D.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Garson View Post
    Agree with some of what you say but I think you are wrong two points. One, hydro is a renewable energy source. Yes in theory a drought could reduce the ability to generate power but at least in North America, hydro is one of if not the most reliable form of power generation. Two, a grid based on renewable energy is not a step backwards and can supply power 24/7. Norway's grid is supplied 98% by renewables, Canada's grid is 67% renewable and 82% non greenhouse gas producing (ie renewable + nuclear).
    Iceland is 100% renewable electricity - 87% from hydro power and 13% from geothermal. They also pipe hot (geothermal) water through the streets of Reykjavik to homes to heat the homes (they charge for the hot water). They also use it to melt the snow in the streets.

    Not everyone has that much hydro, of course, but we're going more and more renewable. Regarding pumping water back into a reservoir at night - it's just a form of energy storage and is a way of storing excess electricity at night. It's difficult to modulate some of the big power generating stations so storing some of that excess electricity in the form of water in a reservoir is a good thing. It's no different than if we had giant batteries that we could charge at night.

    Perhaps one day we'll have solar arrays that do nothing but power pumps that pump water during the day back into a reservoir so that the water can be use for hydro power at night. Then perhaps we wouldn't need those coal and natural gas generating plants.

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 08-30-2019 at 2:28 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

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