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Thread: Fritz & Franz jig vs parallel positioner?

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike King View Post
    Why not just have a cabinet saw then? Using a slider involves learning different methods of work. Once you learn and use those methods of work, you will either see the benefit or revert to your old ways. In which case, you might as well sell the slider.

    IMHO, the slider is a vastly superior and safer tool than the cabinet saw. I would never go back.

    Mike
    Personally, I don't feel any shop without both is under equipped. To me they're like an impact driver and a drill, similar form, some overlap, but they really are two different machines.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Central WI
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    5,268
    The rip fence on a long slider still serves a purpose, that is why it is still there and why it slides. Slide it forward and it serves as a stop ( and gives you enough reference ) and you rip just as with a cabinet saw. great when you need to rip strips. My saw has a 60" rip capacity and I use the fence as a stop all the time. Dave

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Upland CA
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    4,339
    Sheesh, Johnny,

    Never even seen a stick that big, much less try to lift it
    Rick Potter

    DIY journeyman,
    FWW wannabe.
    AKA Village Idiot.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Vermont
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    161
    I agree, while I use the slide side as much as possible I also use the rip fence occasionally for traditional ripping mostly 8" and under, I don' find it awkward or unsafe in anyway.

    Mark

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    The rip fence on a long slider still serves a purpose, that is why it is still there and why it slides. Slide it forward and it serves as a stop ( and gives you enough reference ) and you rip just as with a cabinet saw. great when you need to rip strips. My saw has a 60" rip capacity and I use the fence as a stop all the time. Dave

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    49,575
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Potter View Post
    Sheesh, Johnny,

    Never even seen a stick that big, much less try to lift it
    I have two pieces of Black Walnut that a client dropped off on Sunday in my garage bay...11' long and ~24" wide. I need to make a table top from them. Unfortunately...they are also too big for my slider so I'm going to have to get creative. LOL (and draft a shop assistant for moving them around)
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    Posts
    252
    I’ll hop in here and hopefully not put foot in mouth. To somewhat echo Rick, the rip fence does have one appeal to me - I can rip lots of long, thin stock for boat gunwales/ chines/ etc and know I’ll have the same exact width of every cut. How and where I’ll stand I’m still learning. It still seems to me a perfectly good option is to the right of the blade behind the fence using left hand vs reaching over and using right hand as Steve does in one video.

    I’ve read Brian’s post once and need to spend some more time with it to better understand, esp since I bought two of his parallel fences! But so far, having not yet used them, it seems that to rip the same long stock as above I’ll have to remeasure for each cut, from parallel fence to blade and reset the fences, as the width of each board changes with each rip, or use of new boards.

    It certainly could be that I haven’t gotten this technique down yet Maybe use the rip fence, pulled back, as a reference?

    thx. Jon.
    Last edited by Jon Snider; 08-27-2019 at 11:09 PM.

  7. #22
    Hi Jon,

    You calibrate the fence scale to the blade (instructions are on the website in PDF format), then you read directly off the tape measure or DRO (in the case of the DRO version). You can easily start with say a 10" wide board, say you want 3/8" strips and your blade is 1/8", cut at 10" to clean up the edge of the board, cut the next pass at 9.5", the next at 9" and so on. With the DRO units, they have an incremental setting, you can zero the unit, move .500, then cut, zero and move again .500 and so on. You don't loose your absolute position either.

    That's one way. I quite often will set the fences at 3/8" and using some scraps of lumber clamp down the board, leaving the wide width out on the cast iron table, you cut a strip, re-clamp the board and cut another, not having to move any of your stops. This way you can make strips until the piece is too narrow to use any longer.

    Again, instructions on the website and they just scratch the surface of what you can do. Each person will have their own methods that work best for them.
    Brian Lamb
    Lamb Tool Works, Custom tools for woodworkers
    Equipment: Felder KF700 and AD741, Milltronics CNC Mill, Universal Laser X-600

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Potter View Post
    Sheesh, Johnny,

    Never even seen a stick that big, much less try to lift it
    Living that slab life.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    Posts
    252
    Thanks much Brian. This is very helpful, and sounds like exactly what I need. I need to get rear in gear and spend some quality time with your fences and website. Now that shop build is almost done I’m thinking I can do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Lamb View Post
    Hi Jon,

    You calibrate the fence scale to the blade (instructions are on the website in PDF format), then you read directly off the tape measure or DRO (in the case of the DRO version). You can easily start with say a 10" wide board, say you want 3/8" strips and your blade is 1/8", cut at 10" to clean up the edge of the board, cut the next pass at 9.5", the next at 9" and so on. With the DRO units, they have an incremental setting, you can zero the unit, move .500, then cut, zero and move again .500 and so on. You don't loose your absolute position either.

    That's one way. I quite often will set the fences at 3/8" and using some scraps of lumber clamp down the board, leaving the wide width out on the cast iron table, you cut a strip, re-clamp the board and cut another, not having to move any of your stops. This way you can make strips until the piece is too narrow to use any longer.

    Again, instructions on the website and they just scratch the surface of what you can do. Each person will have their own methods that work best for them.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Flower mound, Tx
    Posts
    484
    Like many here, I feel the F&F jig(s) are invaluable for sliders. I have had my slider for nearly three years now and I just last week ordered a “Rip Fence” for the slider. That’s what Martin calls it. I think of it as a parallel jig.
    I don’t see the need for two parallel jigs when you can use the CC fence/stop as the first reference stop. Apparently Martin does as well. See pic:
    Another nice thing about the F&F jig is that you only have to measure one jig then marry the opposing jig/stop to the first.
    4054584B-ED84-4B1E-98BA-3B4DF9AFCDB6.jpgB208A018-28AE-49A8-A0C2-FA568F99EE3B.jpg

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by John Sincerbeaux View Post
    Like many here, I feel the F&F jig(s) are invaluable for sliders. I have had my slider for nearly three years now and I just last week ordered a “Rip Fence” for the slider. That’s what Martin calls it. I think of it as a parallel jig.
    I don’t see the need for two parallel jigs when you can use the CC fence/stop as the first reference stop. Apparently Martin does as well. See pic:
    Another nice thing about the F&F jig is that you only have to measure one jig then marry the opposing jig/stop to the first.
    4054584B-ED84-4B1E-98BA-3B4DF9AFCDB6.jpgB208A018-28AE-49A8-A0C2-FA568F99EE3B.jpg
    Note that Brian's guides are available to fit a Martin saw. While they are not cheap, I suspect that they are less expensive than the Martin option. I also suspect that there are folk with Martin saws that have purchased his guides.

    Mike

  12. #27
    Yes, we make them to fit the Martin machines and also Minimax, Hammer, and Felder (both X-roll and pre-X-roll machines). As for John's comment about one, again, you have the outrigger in the middle , so shorter parts become an issue, also, just because you only see one fence in the advertising brochure, doesn't mean you can't use two.
    Brian Lamb
    Lamb Tool Works, Custom tools for woodworkers
    Equipment: Felder KF700 and AD741, Milltronics CNC Mill, Universal Laser X-600

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Three Rivers, Central Oregon
    Posts
    2,218
    Reading these threads makes me appreciate my decision to go with a Hammer K3 short stroke slider. It allows me to crosscut a full sheet, and with the carriage locked it functions ergonomically identical to a cabinet saw. I use 2 push sticks, one to push the stock toward the blade and another to hold the stock against the fence, fingers never get close to the blade. Glue line edges would be nice but a quick pass on the jointer does the trick. I use the fence and out-feed stand for ripping full sheets with minor effort. Sam dismissed it as a glorified crosscut saw, which to some extent is true, but it does everything I need for cabinets and furniture without overtaking my shop space, with no need for expensive work around jigs. If I were a commercial shop processing sheet goods all day I'd feel different, but that's not what I do.
    Scott Vroom

    If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    Bernard Baruch

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    219
    I sometimes use two parallel guides/fences/stops when I only want two points of contact for the stock being cut/rip. It is usually when I want to reserve the cross cut fence stops for trimming stock to length. Standing facing the saw sliding table, I will set up the two parallel stops on the right side of the slider, leaving room for me to stand right behind the out-rigger table to use the cross cut fence and its stops for the trimming to length operation. With two cross cut fence stops set for two different lengths, I can performing parallel ripping to size, move to the out-rigger and cut the stocks to lengths. This works very efficiently for cutting a bunch of stiles and rails and only require a one-time setting up. Without the OEM accessories in the past, I clamped scrap wood sticks to the sliding table extension and used them as parallel stops/guides/fences. Inelegance, but worked.

    I frequently use the OEM rip fence for ripping using the same technique as that of using a cabinet saw, except that I stand to the left of the saw blade and push the stock with my right hand using a push stick, which is sacrificial and has many saw kerfs. First, lock the sliding table...set the rip fence...if the part is too narrow, remove/swing away the overhead saw guard...remove the main cross cut fence if needed to not interfere with the material...rip using both hands with left hand exerting slight pressure toward the rip fence and down toward the sliding table, while right hand push stock through with push stick. If the stock is long, I use the sliding table to push the stock, referencing against the rip fence and not the cross-cut fence because of the toe outs amount for both sliding table travel and rip fence (in my case 0.003" for each). This is faster than setting up the parallel guides/stops/fences and is my way of producing thin strips (i.e. edge bands, etc.). Though my preferred method of making edge band is with the band saw and planner.

    My next experiment is doing the above, except with a power feeder. This will really keep my fingers way a way from the blade.

    My $0.02.

    WS

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bucks County, PA
    Posts
    556
    Revisiting this thread since I just used a positioner and my outrigger fence this weekend to rip a bunch of pieces. I've got an Incra positioner attached to a jig that registers against the little support table on my Hammer K3. It's calibrated to the blade, as is the fence on the outrigger. I use a Kreg clamp on the positioner side to hold down the pieces, and just push on through. Works great for anything that can fit on the table.

    jig1.jpg

    For much shorter pieces I have and still use my Fritz and Franz jig. It needs a little adjustment however, since it's not perfect. I'll work on that at some point...
    And there was trouble, taking place...

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