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Thread: An alternate approach to controlling tear-out.

  1. #16
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    There are four ways to go with high cutting angles.

    1. A Bailey style, such as the LN with high angle frog. The highest angle available is 55 degrees. The Veritas Custom plane offers your choice, so it is possible to get a 60 degree frog.

    2. Use any plane with a common angle (45 degrees), and add a back bevel. For example, a 15 degree back bevel on a Stanley #4 creates a 60 degree cutting angle.

    3. A woodie, such as the HNT Gordon, comes with a 60 degree bed.

    4. A bevel up plane, such as a Veritas BU Smoother, which has a 12 degree bed, together with a 50 degree angle on the blade, creates a 62 degree cutting angle.

    In my experience, there is a very different feel when using these planes, regardless of their all cutting at the same angle. The wood may not tell the difference in the way the blade cuts, but the hand certainly does.

    The Bailey option, whether a high angle frog or a back bevel, feels quite different to either the BU option or the HNT Gordon. The first two have a high centre of effort, while the latter two have a lower centre of effort. Lower centre of effort = less force required to push the blade. This translates to choosing a BU plane over a back bevelled plane for ease of use. Every time.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    Warren, what do you think Sir? Is the back bevel a better approach, or just an alternate approach to a high angle plane?
    There are several approaches to high angle planing:
    1) high bed angle with bevel down iron
    2) bevel up iron with high bevel angle
    3) back bevel on a bevel down plane

    The double iron is superior to all of these methods because it is less abusive to the edge of the iron, it is easier to push, and gives a finer surface quality on the timber. High angle gives a surface which is not as clear or as smooth. I have seen some timbers which could not be planed with 60 degree cutting angle; In 45 years I have not seen timbers which could not be planed nicely with a double iron.

    I would think that maintaining a back bevel at a specific angle would cause extra time and trouble in sharpening. And I suspect that if the total bevel angle (main bevel plus back bevel" is greater than 30, as is the case with back bevel and bevel up, the edge does not catch the wood as well. So I would suspect that a high bed is best.

    I abandoned high angle planing and bevel up planes in 1976.
    Last edited by Warren Mickley; 07-04-2019 at 11:16 AM.

  3. #18
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    Warren, I agree with you that the double iron is superior to the high cutting angle for controlling tear out. No argument. Up until 2012 I was using a high cutting angle for everything, and had been doing so for a long time. Over the next year or two my planing went back-and-forth, mostly siding with a double iron. Since then, the past 5 years, it have been almost completely double iron. Having stated this, there will be many for whom a high cutting angle remains the preference. The fact is that is works well, perhaps not to the nth degree of the double iron, but it works very well for most difficult timbers. The advantage of the cutting angle is that it is much easier to set up than a double iron. Practice makes perfect, but not everyone wants to take the time to learn the skill.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  4. #19
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    The advantage of the cutting angle is that it is much easier to set up than a double iron. Practice makes perfect, but not everyone wants to take the time to learn the skill.
    This may be the crux of the matter. Setting the chip breaker for optimum performance can be a fiddly task at best. Too close for the thickness of cut and the shavings jam and stall forward motion. Too far back and the chip breaking effect is lost with thin shavings.

    For many people resetting and constantly taking their plane apart to adjust the chip breaker until it is just right will be chalked up as something that doesn't work with the ease they expect.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #20
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    waiting their turns...
    computer desk project, waiting their turn.JPG
    maybe someday, I'll get the hang of using this one...
    computer desk project, smoothed rail.JPG
    maybe.....micron thin shavings are..ok, if you are just showing off...
    Computer Desk Project, clean up in aisle 1.JPG
    But i prefer to get some work done, this is about...3 hours worth...

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    waiting their turns...
    computer desk project, waiting their turn.JPG
    maybe someday, I'll get the hang of using this one...

    maybe.....micron thin shavings are..ok, if you are just showing off...

    But i prefer to get some work done, this is about...3 hours worth...

    I missed something. How does this relate to controlling tearout Steve?
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
    - Sir Edmund Burke

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    [edited]
    Computer Desk Project, clean up in aisle 1.JPG
    But i prefer to get some work done, this is about...3 hours worth...
    Your plane has to be moving pretty slow if that is all you shave off in three hours.

    When taking off saw marks or truing an edge or face, a heavy shaving is standard.

    Final smoothing is when a fine shaving helps to make a piece like glass.

    Other than making a reflective surface a fine shaving helps to evaluate the condition of a blade. Also if a plane is not able to make a fine shaving it can be an indication of the plane's sole not being flat.

    To stay relevant to the thread, an extremely fine shaving is helpful in the avoidance of tear out. A shaving of ~0.001" isn't going to have the strength to pull out a big divot from the face of the work.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Matthews View Post
    Backbevel achieved with David Charlesworth's "ruler trick"?
    Yes, exactly!

  9. #24
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    Originally Posted by Jim Matthews
    Backbevel achieved with David Charlesworth's "ruler trick"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Yes, exactly!
    Actually ... no.

    The Ruler Trick (of David Charlesworth) creates a 1/3 degree back bevel. For a high cutting angle, say on a 45 degree frog, a back bevel of 15 degrees is required.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #25
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    Downside to a back bevel is that it makes a very blunt cutting edge. If my normal edge is 30 degrees, a back beveled edge is 40 degrees easily.

    Ive used one on rabbet planes in cranky wood, but not for anything with a double iron.

    The double iron is very effective and certainly worth spending the time needed to make use of it.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #26
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    Brian, your comments remind me that a 15-degree back bevel is extremely useful when using a common angle plough plane for grooves and beads in interlocked grain. Ideally, one would not use a plough plane in such wood, but it may be unavoidable. Narrow blades will not cause any extra difficulty in pushing the plane.

    The other issue is whether a high cutting angle on a smoother creates a poor surface. I recognise that a low cutting angle will leave the better finish, but I would seriously doubt that 98% of woodworkers could tell the difference on planed hardwood even without a finish.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  12. #27
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    Depends on what one is doing....
    computer desk project, 3rd side, 2 panels done.JPG
    Not all shavings need to be "full width"
    Computer Desk Project, 45's shavings.JPG
    Nor do they need to be see-throughs...
    Have 2 planes that are single iron, low angle....
    computer desk project, smoothed rail.JPG
    This #62....and a Stanley #60-1/2
    Biggest thing is to actually read the directions the grain is going,,,rather than just pushing a plane along regardless of what the grain is.
    Chipbreakers on my other planes are set 1mm back, no back bevels, just a single 25 degree main, flat, bevel.
    Computer Desk Project, edge cleaned.JPG
    Millers Falls No. 11. Ash rail was rough sawn, needed smoothed down..
    Computer Desk Project, ends first.JPG
    Raising panels with a hand plane...all 4 edges need a bevel....so, how many passes of gossamer shavings to do this job....and how long? better hurry, as you have 12 such raised panels to do...
    computer desk project, 3 sides done.JPG
    Done, yet?

  13. #28
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    Raising panels with a hand plane...all 4 edges need a bevel....so, how many passes of gossamer shavings to do this job....and how long?
    Very few and done very quickly. If you would completely read what was stated you might begin to understand only the last few passes are done with a smoothing plane and only when needed/desired. If one wants a 'rustic' feel to their finished piece, then none are required.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  14. #29
    Stephen, it seems from reading your post, you're hinting that the close set cap iron approach is strictly for taking thin shavings?

    The double iron excels in this regard, because you can adjust the cap iron to suit whatever timber you're working on.
    This includes moderate shavings with a reduced tearout cap iron setting.

    Much more efficient than having a heap of spare irons for this, that and the other timber that's inbetween.

    Tom

  15. #30
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    hmm, was kind of busy, today...
    computer desk project, rebate shavings 1.JPG
    As I had 2 of these to do...
    computer desk project, rebate #2.JPG
    Rebate for the plywood back to sit in...
    computer desk project, side 1 rebate.JPG
    Was a busy day....had to cut parts for a few webframes, and then build 5 of them...waiting on glue to cure, now...
    computer desk project, 5 webframes done.JPG

    BTW: I use that close set chipbreaker in all but 2 bench planes....both have a "scrub plane" camber...

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