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Thread: Dust Collection in Basement below Shop

  1. #1

    Dust Collection in Basement below Shop

    My new shop will have a dust collector in the basement with the ductwork below the main floor. I have to contend with the HVAC ductwork.


    Attachment 411866


    The basement height is 10' 3" to the bottom of the floor joist so there is height for the main dust collection trunk to pass under the trunk HVAC duct. As I indicated in my construction thread https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....58#post2935358, the main dust generators are clustered in the center of the floor. Tools like the router table, drill press, band saw and stationary sanders are along the perimeter wall. The lathe is in a far corner.

    I am struggling with meeting all the criteria for good dust collection design. I have a Oneida Portable 2 hp Dust Gorilla that I bought several years ago. The specific model has been discontinued. This model is somewhat small for stationary unit servicing this size shop. It was fine as a portable unit connected to one tool at a time with a 10' of 6" flex. The longest duct lengths in this shop may be too much for it to provide adequate flow.

    Here are some constraints and design considerations that I need to work with. The basement is also a garage so I will have to have fire proof sheetrock on the ceiling per code. I am planning on just dropping the whole ceiling below the HVAC and DC ductwork resulting in about an 8 ft finished ceiling height. In addition to the HVAC ductwork. I also have a roll-up garage door that would preclude having DC duct going under the HVAC in that area. The hand tool area is above the garage door tracks so I may just use a shop vac for the hand sanders and such.

    I know that the duct into the collector inlet port should have a straight run entering (~10 pipe diameters or about 5 ft for 6" duct) so that the air flow is perpendicular to the impeller for good pumping efficiency. So that means I have to run the main pipe 5' horizontally then turn up to get to floor joist height. I plan a centrally located closet in the basement to enclose the DC and this horizontal section of inlet pipe. The closet would straddle the main trunk for the HVAC. I can route laterals in either direction inside the closet. The closet will have a return air grate through the floor above so the exhaust from the DC returns to the main level. The closet will be about 3' by 6' inside dimensions. I will put my air compressor in this same room. The lateral runs will exit the closet above the dropped ceiling.

    That first vertical section will come straight up to serve the table saw and planer. Tees below floor level from that vertical will go laterally to the tools on either perimeter (I need to do the flow calculations to see if the air flow is adequate with the current tool arrangement). I will just have one tool running at a time so all main lines will be 6". Wyes going to individual tools will be a short section of 4" spiral duct through the floor to a blast gate and then flex duct to the tool. I think will need less volume flow in the main lines because all my vertical ducts are down flow. The main goal of the duct layout is short to reduce both cost and flow loss. I shall have to do some engineering.

    Does anyone have experience with Oneida-Air duct design service?

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Central MA
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    1,255
    Save yourself tons of heartbreak, bite the bullet and buy a bigger collector now. There's no point in doing it twice and the collector you have isn't up to the task you're asking it to do.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    I agree that having that 2hp dust collector in that shop is insufficient, at least with my experience. My 5hp Clearvue cyclone does not have a 5- straight section at the inlet due to constraints on my installation. However the thing is so powerful it makes up inefficiencies at the inlet and elsewhere. Seems like a shame to build a Ferrari and put a Volkswagen bug engine in it!

    The return air duct from the closet should be baffled and change direction several times to minimize noise transmission back into the shop. I made my return duct from plywood and sprayed it inside with a soft rubber coating. Mine is snaked through the roof trusses so making direction changes was easy.

    Dust_collector_baffle_small.jpg

    If the closet is under the shop floor good sound insulation under the floor will help. Best is a double construction with no sound transmission path by contact. I too have the DC and big air compressor in the same closet. I made sure my DC was not physically hung on a wall that could transmit sound. I also put all DC and air controls in the main shop - electrical disconnects, bin monitor, cutoff valves, gauges, driers, regulators, etc.

    Too bad the same person didn't design both the HVAC and DC ductwork so they will play well together. I didn't look at your basement height to the joists. Hope it's high enough for the DC ducts to cross under the HVAC ducts and still allow a useful ceiling height. In one house retrofit, we had to build special wide and flat HVAC ducts in places for headroom clearance. Another option may be to frame chases as needed. Ug. (EDIT: I missed where you said that even with the DC ducting you would still have 8' in the garage - fantastic!)

    I haven't used it but I know others have used the Oneida design service. I designed mine just keeping in mind the basics - minimize length, minimize bends. Again, a more powerful cyclone forgive a lot of planning and tradeoff inefficiencies.

    Fixing the shop tool placement with the idea of cutting holes in the floor for DC scares me! I had a similar situation where I ran ducting in the trusses above the ceiling and cut holes for drops. To help with planning I positioned paper cutouts on a scale diagram and did numerous "walkthroughs" with circles representing space for me to walk and carry things. I had separage cutouts for infeed and outfeed requirements. Based on this, I adjusted the positions of two double doors in an interior and an exterior wall to give extended in/outfeed if ever needed. One of my design iterations in progress:

    layout_paper_2.jpg

    I also positioned big cardboard boxes on the floor to pretend they were benches and equipment that I could physically walk through to get a feel for the shape.

    In my case, adding a couple of otherwise unnecessary interior walls in strategic spots gave a huge payback in wall space and compartmentalization (for example, for my woodturning area).

    JKJ



    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Wilson View Post
    My new shop will have a dust collector in the basement with the ductwork below the main floor. I have to contend with the HVAC ductwork.


    Attachment 411866


    The basement height is 10' 3" to the bottom of the floor joist so there is height for the main dust collection trunk to pass under the trunk HVAC duct. As I indicated in my construction thread https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....58#post2935358, the main dust generators are clustered in the center of the floor. Tools like the router table, drill press, band saw and stationary sanders are along the perimeter wall. The lathe is in a far corner.

    I am struggling with meeting all the criteria for good dust collection design. I have a Oneida Portable 2 hp Dust Gorilla that I bought several years ago. The specific model has been discontinued. This model is somewhat small for stationary unit servicing this size shop. It was fine as a portable unit connected to one tool at a time with a 10' of 6" flex. The longest duct lengths in this shop may be too much for it to provide adequate flow.

    Here are some constraints and design considerations that I need to work with. The basement is also a garage so I will have to have fire proof sheetrock on the ceiling per code. I am planning on just dropping the whole ceiling below the HVAC and DC ductwork resulting in about an 8 ft finished ceiling height. In addition to the HVAC ductwork. I also have a roll-up garage door that would preclude having DC duct going under the HVAC in that area. The hand tool area is above the garage door tracks so I may just use a shop vac for the hand sanders and such.

    I know that the duct into the collector inlet port should have a straight run entering (~10 pipe diameters or about 5 ft for 6" duct) so that the air flow is perpendicular to the impeller for good pumping efficiency. So that means I have to run the main pipe 5' horizontally then turn up to get to floor joist height. I plan a centrally located closet in the basement to enclose the DC and this horizontal section of inlet pipe. The closet would straddle the main trunk for the HVAC. I can route laterals in either direction inside the closet. The closet will have a return air grate through the floor above so the exhaust from the DC returns to the main level. The closet will be about 3' by 6' inside dimensions. I will put my air compressor in this same room. The lateral runs will exit the closet above the dropped ceiling.

    That first vertical section will come straight up to serve the table saw and planer. Tees below floor level from that vertical will go laterally to the tools on either perimeter (I need to do the flow calculations to see if the air flow is adequate with the current tool arrangement). I will just have one tool running at a time so all main lines will be 6". Wyes going to individual tools will be a short section of 4" spiral duct through the floor to a blast gate and then flex duct to the tool. I think will need less volume flow in the main lines because all my vertical ducts are down flow. The main goal of the duct layout is short to reduce both cost and flow loss. I shall have to do some engineering.

    Does anyone have experience with Oneida-Air duct design service?
    Last edited by John K Jordan; 06-26-2019 at 7:24 AM.

  4. #4
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    Do you heat or cool your shop? If not ditch the filter and maybe even the cyclone.
    Bill D

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    Do you heat or cool your shop? If not ditch the filter and maybe even the cyclone.
    Bill D
    Me? Yes, I heat and cool. The air conditioning really helps with the high humidity in this part of the country, especially on those days when the temperature is in the 90s (forecast for tomorrow and the next several days). I also air dry turning wood in the shop which adds to the humidity and have incubators and chick brooders in one room - controlling temperature swings is a big plus for that.

    Tom's new shop is right up the road so his situation is the same.

    JKJ

  6. #6
    Thanks John J and John L. You may be right about the 2 hp dust collector. Oneida provides a sample head loss calculation for this DC model in the online documentation that shows a 20 ft branch of 6" providing 800 cfm at 8 inches of H20. That is more than enough my largest air consumer, the 15" planer. Oneida recommends 600 cfm for the planer and 450-600 for everything else I have. A lot of my tools are old and have no dust collection ports or poorly designed ports. I understand that more air flow will help overcome these limitations. I would note that Oneida does not sell the 2 HP Dust Gorilla anymore. The Dust Gorilla line starts at 3 HP which tells you something. On the other hand, I would still use 6" main duct and the same branch design for a 3 HP collector. I lose nothing by trying it out with the collector I currently own.

    I will also turn on my geeky math/engineer brain and set up a system performance calculation for my shop, Moody friction factors, CFM, FPM, and all such good stuff. That is what I used to do for a living. I will be able to calculate the flow in the branches myself. I may learn something too that is helpful in designing an efficient system.


    John J.: On the ceiling clearance, the floor joists are 10'3" above the basement floor. The HVAC main trunk is 9' overhead. Because I will position the DC closet under the HVAC main trunk, DC branches will never have to cross under HVAC main except in the closet. I will probably be able to squeeze the HVAC laterals up a bit between the floor joists so that the overhead clearance to the dust duct is still 9' feet high. I will miss every inch of height when I want to store lumber vertically so I will work to keep the ceiling as high as possible. It will be more than 8'. I hope 9'. Per the building code, I have to install fire rated sheet rock on the ceiling of the basement because it is used as garage. This will limit accessibility for future dust collector and electrical modifications.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    Me? Yes, I heat and cool. The air conditioning really helps with the high humidity in this part of the country, especially on those days when the temperature is in the 90s (forecast for tomorrow and the next several days). I also air dry turning wood in the shop which adds to the humidity and have incubators and chick brooders in one room - controlling temperature swings is a big plus for that.

    Tom's new shop is right up the road so his situation is the same.

    JKJ
    Bill: Right. Heating and cooling. Recirculating dust collector.

    John:
    Porch framing should be complete by end of day. It is going to be like a tree house.
    TW

  8. #8
    FWIW, I've got a Grizzly G0443 1 1/2 HP dust collector in a 2 car garage, and it works great. I get ~1000 CFM of air flow at the outlets for all tools. My longest run is about 30' with 3 90s. If you use as large a pipe as possible (I use 6" everywhere possible), avoid sharp bends, and flexible tube you can get great collection from a smaller dust collector.

    I'd also advise venting outside if possible, and not worrying about putting the dust collector into it's own room. It's true they're noise, but for mine it's always quieter than whatever power tool I happen to be using. It's also in the corner of the shop, and I'm always right next to whatever tool I'm using.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Wilson View Post

    John J.: On the ceiling clearance, the floor joists are 10'3" above the basement floor. The HVAC main trunk is 9' overhead. Because I will position the DC closet under the HVAC main trunk, DC branches will never have to cross under HVAC main except in the closet. I will probably be able to squeeze the HVAC laterals up a bit between the floor joists so that the overhead clearance to the dust duct is still 9' feet high. I will miss every inch of height when I want to store lumber vertically so I will work to keep the ceiling as high as possible. It will be more than 8'. I hope 9'. Per the building code, I have to install fire rated sheet rock on the ceiling of the basement because it is used as garage. This will limit accessibility for future dust collector and electrical modifications.
    For a basement apartment I built for my dad I had large ducts that could not be moved in part of the space. I ended up putting a slightly lower ceiling in some places and a higher ceiling in others, notably to clear an entry door from the stairwell. As this was a living space I used drop ceiling and shaped the transitions with angled panels - looked great and had a minimum head space of just a bit under 8'. I suspect a similar design could give plenty of duct space where needed and extra ceiling height in lumber/panel storage areas. And one point of reference - the closet where I installed my ClearVue cyclone has a 9' ceiling and with the 35-gal metal trash can bin I needed every inch! (The ClearVue has a longer cone than some.)

    And you probably won't need the extra storage space but the thought of up to 2' of empty space in spots above the ceiling has me thinking of some kind of accessible storage, drop down or otherwise. I saw one shop where ducts were boxed in and the guy added deep shelves in spots to let short boards and extend into the space.

    I still want to visit again and see the progress, but with company on the way from overseas I'm not sure when!

    JKJ

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    NC Piedmont
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    Tom, sounds like my shop is similar to yours and John's. Mine is 32x64 over a basement with similar ceiling height. I use a Clearvue CVMAX and 8" ducts initially but generally 6" coming up through the floor. I used the design service by Nordfab but made some of my own adjustments. If you ever venture into NC, I am in the Charlotte area and you are welcome to check it out.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Dozier View Post
    Tom, sounds like my shop is similar to yours and John's. Mine is 32x64 over a basement with similar ceiling height. I use a Clearvue CVMAX and 8" ducts initially but generally 6" coming up through the floor. I used the design service by Nordfab but made some of my own adjustments. If you ever venture into NC, I am in the Charlotte area and you are welcome to check it out.
    Yours sounds like it is about twice as big! I would love to see it sometime. Twenty yeats ago, I made the trip to Davidson College near Charlotte regularly when my daughter studied there. Charlotte is a lot like Atlanta. It is a great area.

    I am working on my own design calculations so I can consider lots of options. How did you like working with Nordfab? They are the elite duct supplier. Did you feel like they were thinking ahead of you or just putting together the design you asked for?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    QUOTE=Thomas Wilson;2937032]Yours sounds like it is about twice as big! I would love to see it sometime. Twenty yeats ago, I made the trip to Davidson College near Charlotte regularly when my daughter studied there. Charlotte is a lot like Atlanta. It is a great area.

    I am working on my own design calculations so I can consider lots of options. How did you like working with Nordfab? They are the elite duct supplier. Did you feel like they were thinking ahead of you or just putting together the design you asked for?[/QUOTE]

    Yes, it is embarrassingly large but the dust collection only includes one side and down the middle. As far as working with Nordfab, there was a little difficulty getting across what I wanted to accomplish but after a few back and forths they did a good job. Some things they did that I wouldn't easily have known, for instance, is where to drop from an 8" to 7" main duct. I needed to be specific about location of ducts since I have hydronic tubing in the floor for hear and had left two strips without tubing out in the middle of the floor. I also wanted to minimize holes in the floor if possible so I have some ducts branch off after coming through the floor.

    I have also ordered material from Air Handling Systems in Woodbridge, CT. They are a smaller company that is easier to deal with than Nordfab and they delivered very quickly and efficiently. Their products are interchangeable with the quick fit Nordfab pieces. The snap lock system is great. I recently added a duct for an old Unisaw I rebuilt and all I had to do was snap in a new Y and go from there.

  13. #13
    Thomas,

    DC is something you can overthink and easy get sucked into the "Pentz Vacuum"

    My suggestion is collect only the big machines with your current blower and use dedicated shop vac (s) for the sanders/routers/miter saws, etc. You already have what you need and won't spend $$$'s on a new one. Much cheaper to buy a couple shop vacs and mini cyclones.

    Running ducts to all those tools and the small hoses they require makes them harder to collect. And sanders, etc are the guys producing the small particle more dangerous dust. As mentioned it would require a much bigger blower. You need to consider whether the return on the investment is worth it or not. That said, if you plan on getting a drum sander or large edge sander I would invest in a big unit and be done with it.

    I've been happy with the shop vac/cyclone setup for my router table and miter saw, aside from the noise.

    For hand sanders, Domino, biscuit jointer, etc. I prefer to use a dust extractor like Festool or Fein will do a better job than a shop vac and are much quieter.

    Lastly, an air filtration unit is something to also consider.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Engel View Post
    My suggestion is collect only the big machines with your current blower and use dedicated shop vac (s) for the sanders/routers/miter saws, etc.
    Jointers and Planers are such more more pleasant to use with decent DC. I've had a few projects where the shavings were literally knee deep unless I stopped every so often to shovel them into a trash can.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    2,354
    If it were me, I would get a larger dust collector. People seem to over rate dust collector performance.

    For example, I do not believe a 1.5 hp Dust collector will deliver 1000 cfm. Wood Magazine tested a number of these and none gave that performance.

    I get over 1000 cfm with a 6' but running a 5 hp with 15" impeller.

    If your dust collector works well enough for you, then use it.

    Too many people use a fan anemometer to measure cfm and there are just not accurate at all. Measuring performance need either special probes or a hot wire anemometer and take measurements across the section. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult to measure performance.

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