Toothed vs. scrub

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Guys,

at last my wife is back from her vacations and brought me my extra Lee Nielsen irons for my Jack plane.

I already had the regular iron (25 degrees) and the scrapping iron (90 degrees) and now I received a toothed and a couple of extra regular blades. My idea is to take both extra regular blades and microbevel them at 30-35 degrees and one of them to round the edge in order to transform my Jack plane in a scrub plane.

Today I tested the toothed blade: it works very well but I had the sensation of imminence to get one of the teeth broken constantly. They look so fragile...

I have the intention to work manually my unsquared lumber one of the faces with Jack plane to prepare the piece to run thru my lunchbox planner. I need a robust and reliable tool for that as usually our local woods are hard and, of course, I do not have intention to spend a lifetime preparing the piece to run thru my power plane.

Question: from your experience, what is more productive in that scenario, a Jack plane with a toothed blade or a scrub iron at 35 degrees in my Jack plane (12 degrees frog)?

Thanks in advance for your usual sound advice!

[Warren Mickley]

I recommend a double iron jack plane, which I have used for rough work for over forty years. The toothing plane was used for preparing cross grain timbers before the advent of the double iron a few centuries ago. The toothing plane is now used for preparing a roughen surface for veneering.

To flatten one side, plane with a jack plane, then true with a trying plane. Check often with straightedge and winding sticks.

[Scott Winners]

Osvaldo,

I really enjoy your questions. Once upon a time I was about six months ahead of you in this hobby. You must have more free time than me. I think next year you will be giving me advice.

I have a scrub plane, but it took some time to get it set up correctly. Here is a picture of two planes, both " Number 4" size.

20190621_170413.jpg

The smoother plane setup has a mouth opening 50 x 6 mm, with 1.5mm open space ahead of the leading edge of the plane iron. The scrub plane has a mouth opening of 50 x 8mm, but with 3mm open ahead of the blade edge.

Getting that 3mm open was the difference between a miserable tool and a tool that sings opera. I am in my mid 50s years old. I have two kinds of arthritis. My doctor calls me every three months to offer me more drugs. I am not, physically, a third of the man I was 30 years ago. But with that scrub plane, with the 3mm gap, I can take 3/16" thickness off an area 24 x 48" in about 30 minutes. Construction grade soft wood, rough 60 x 120 cm benchtop, 4-5mm depth off the whole surface, easy pea-sy lemon squeezy. When you have wood chips bouncing off the ceiling of your shop without any swearing, your scrub plane is setup correctly.

From what I hear you saying a scrub plane is a good idea for you. I don't think you can get a good running scrub plane and an excellent smoother out of the same body casting with one mouth opening. I think you are going to want a second plane body with a bigger mouth for your scrub. The good news is a cheap body will work just fine as a scrub.

'Easy Pea-sy lemon squeezy" is a piece of vernacular that rhymes and basically means "easy easy easy easy."

[James Brislawn]

From what I hear you saying a scrub plane is a good idea for you. I don't think you can get a good running scrub plane and an excellent smoother out of the same body casting with one mouth opening. I think you are going to want a second plane body with a bigger mouth for your scrub. The good news is a cheap body will work just fine as a scrub.

Based on the types of irons he’s swapping out I’d be willing to bet he’s using the low angle (bevel up) jack, which means he can open and close the mouth at will. I think without buying another plane he’s wondering if he should use the toothed iron in the jack or camber a blade to use for this purpose.

I have heard mixed reviews on cambering a bevel up blade for this purpose, but I myself have never tried it (or the toothed blade) so hopefully someone who has tried both will chime in.

[Derek Cohen]

...
I have heard mixed reviews on cambering a bevel up blade for this purpose, but I myself have never tried it (or the toothed blade) so hopefully someone who has tried both will chime in.

Very doable, if you want to go down this path, James. I don't, but a debate I had with Larry Williams (Old Street Planes) a dozen years ago lead to the development of a method to camber BU planes.



http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...aneBlades.html

Personally, I have a dedicated jack plane, a woodie, but I do know those who use a LA Jack. I have used a toothing blade on occasions, but it's not a blade I view as an alternative to a jack. It has a place, such as when working interlocked timber.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Brislawn]

Thanks Derek, luckily for me it is Osvaldo who has this dilemma, but at least he now has some instruction if that is the route he wants to go. I personally use either a vintage Bailey no 4 converted to a scrub or a LN 5 1/2 for this work, and can’t fault either. I just wanted to see if someone had the answer to Osvaldo’s question regarding the tool he already owns. I don’t like giving advice on things I haven’t tried myself.

[Tom Trees]

If you want to be productive use a bevel down plane, or two with various cambers, like what Warren wrote above.
That said, I don't think I get along with woodies, and would rather the Bailey pattern, as my bench is higher than some folks, as my neck would get sore
if too low, and a high bench with a woodie puts strain on my wrist.
Hands down, the double iron can't be beat for even the most troublesome hardwood timbers with reversing grain.

Keep the bevel up plane for end grain, and the shooting board.

Who have you ever seen using a toothed plane for rough work?

[Jim Matthews]

There's no substitute for experience, regarding very hard species. In my brief forays with Cumaru (Dipteryx odorata)
toothed blades were ineffective.

A high blade angle, lightly cambered single iron worked best.
(HNT Gordon jack plane - pulled).

A cabinet scraper was required, regardless of how sharp the primary blade was. Similar frustration followed with Angelim Pedra and "Ribbon" Sapele (from Africa).

Interlocked hardwoods are notoriously difficult to manage, and present challenges beyond the most basic skills. After nearly 10 years plodding along, I choose wood very carefully.

http://www.adsfinewoods.com/wood_comparison_chart.aspx

[Osvaldo Cristo]

There's no substitute for experience, regarding very hard species. In my brief forays with Cumaru (Dipteryx odorata)
toothed blades were ineffective.

A high blade angle, lightly cambered single iron worked best.
(HNT Gordon jack plane - pulled).

A cabinet scraper was required, regardless of how sharp the primary blade was. Similar frustration followed with Angelim Pedra and "Ribbon" Sapele (from Africa).

Interlocked hardwoods are notoriously difficult to manage, and present challenges beyond the most basic skills. After nearly 10 years plodding along, I choose wood very carefully.

http://www.adsfinewoods.com/wood_comparison_chart.aspx

Thanks, Jim,

I think you are feeling my pain. Cumaru, ipe, angelim, peroba, imbuia, and several other very hard wood are common here and they are difficult to work despite they can make pieces to last centuries and even outside, many decades.

I have for 25 years an outside table we use a few times for outdoor lunch constructed with a single slab of Angelim Pedra (Pedra means "stone") 4-in tick and 8 feet by 3.5 feet... guy, it is like new. No warping, no cracking...

I am new to hand tools, with limited skills and experience on manual planes, and I like to experiment: I can work comfortably with ipe. No way to work with Angelim Pedra, but there is a variety, Angelim (without "Pedra") that I can work. For Imbuia there is no way to work with bevel down planes... only my Jack BU can get some results...

I agree you direct experience is a great way to learn more about the best tool and process to use for each application but outside experiences can change dramatically the learning curve. I have had several hints from you, much more experienced woodworker, that saved me years of trial and error.

Thank you to join to the discussion!

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Based on the types of irons he’s swapping out I’d be willing to bet he’s using the low angle (bevel up) jack, which means he can open and close the mouth at will. I think without buying another plane he’s wondering if he should use the toothed iron in the jack or camber a blade to use for this purpose.

I have heard mixed reviews on cambering a bevel up blade for this purpose, but I myself have never tried it (or the toothed blade) so hopefully someone who has tried both will chime in.

Yes, James, you are right. I have a BU Jack plane. I purchased it after a series of frustrations with chip breakers - it looks there was no way in the earth to have them correctly adjusted in my cheap no. 4 Stanley. My experience with BU planes were diametrally opposed, although I tried with LN top quality tools.

Thanks for your help to clarify my request!

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Very doable, if you want to go down this path, James. I don't, but a debate I had with Larry Williams (Old Street Planes) a dozen years ago lead to the development of a method to camber BU planes.



http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...aneBlades.html

Personally, I have a dedicated jack plane, a woodie, but I do know those who use a LA Jack. I have used a toothing blade on occasions, but it's not a blade I view as an alternative to a jack. It has a place, such as when working interlocked timber.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks, Derek, as usual you share your own great personal experience so generosity. Your link is a crown jewel for anyone interested in cambering irons. Bookmarked!

I am trying to use my BU Jack plane at its most - the idea is to use it like a photo camera with interchangeable lenses where according to the application I use the more convenient lens mounted on the same camera.

Returning to my original question, what do you think between toothed and cambered iron mounted on a BU plane for fast face plane of a rough piece of wood before to use my lunch box power plane to do the final part of the job?

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Osvaldo,

I really enjoy your questions. Once upon a time I was about six months ahead of you in this hobby. You must have more free time than me. I think next year you will be giving me advice.

I have a scrub plane, but it took some time to get it set up correctly. Here is a picture of two planes, both " Number 4" size.

20190621_170413.jpg

The smoother plane setup has a mouth opening 50 x 6 mm, with 1.5mm open space ahead of the leading edge of the plane iron. The scrub plane has a mouth opening of 50 x 8mm, but with 3mm open ahead of the blade edge.

Getting that 3mm open was the difference between a miserable tool and a tool that sings opera. I am in my mid 50s years old. I have two kinds of arthritis. My doctor calls me every three months to offer me more drugs. I am not, physically, a third of the man I was 30 years ago. But with that scrub plane, with the 3mm gap, I can take 3/16" thickness off an area 24 x 48" in about 30 minutes. Construction grade soft wood, rough 60 x 120 cm benchtop, 4-5mm depth off the whole surface, easy pea-sy lemon squeezy. When you have wood chips bouncing off the ceiling of your shop without any swearing, your scrub plane is setup correctly.

From what I hear you saying a scrub plane is a good idea for you. I don't think you can get a good running scrub plane and an excellent smoother out of the same body casting with one mouth opening. I think you are going to want a second plane body with a bigger mouth for your scrub. The good news is a cheap body will work just fine as a scrub.

'Easy Pea-sy lemon squeezy" is a piece of vernacular that rhymes and basically means "easy easy easy easy."

Scott,

it is great to know we track similar paths! I am using a bevel up (BU) Jack plane, its mouth is adjustable, so no big deal to work with it as a general purpose plane. I have a small shop so not so much space for new toys... err... tools. So to make the most from each tool is a must for me. I would like to have just two or three planes for all my needs and BU planes look me the most flexible ones...

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I recommend a double iron jack plane, which I have used for rough work for over forty years. The toothing plane was used for preparing cross grain timbers before the advent of the double iron a few centuries ago. The toothing plane is now used for preparing a roughen surface for veneering.

To flatten one side, plane with a jack plane, then true with a trying plane. Check often with straightedge and winding sticks.

Thanks Warren,

yes, I am aware your is the most traditional approach and has been foolproof for generations... my problem is the chip breaker. I am traumatized by that little piece after lots of fight to have them correctly set up and adjusted. Now I understand much more its function and correct set up but a lot of the trauma persists - so, if possible, I will avoid "double irons"...

Thank you for your feedback.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

If you want to be productive use a bevel down plane, or two with various cambers, like what Warren wrote above.
That said, I don't think I get along with woodies, and would rather the Bailey pattern, as my bench is higher than some folks, as my neck would get sore
if too low, and a high bench with a woodie puts strain on my wrist.
Hands down, the double iron can't be beat for even the most troublesome hardwood timbers with reversing grain.

Keep the bevel up plane for end grain, and the shooting board.

Who have you ever seen using a toothed plane for rough work?

Lee Nielsen educational video and their sponsored woodworkers in youtube looks me try to sell the idea to use toothed blades for rough planning competing against cambered irons. That is the origin of my doubts as I have no experience with any of them.

[Tom Trees]

Hello again

I would use some caution using those toothed irons for your local dense hardwoods.
I work near exclusively with a reclaimed Arfican timber species called iroko , a troublesome timber, not just known for the tearout, but for its allergenic effects.
It can sensitize you to pretty much every other timber, so have a look at the wood toxicity table, it's in Bill Pentz's dust collection research, and probably elsewhere.
I'll bet your favorite timbers will be up on the top ranks of toxicity.
From what I understand, the quinones are the turpins in the timber that cause reactions.
I developed a reaction to the iroko, as I have loads of it packed into my workshop.
I had to stay away from the workshop for a few months, as my lips started to burn when entering into the lair.
This was due to planing long timbers for a Klausz workbench (I was doing nothing else)

Luckily, not too long ago, I came across David Weaver on his relentless quest to make it known about the influence of the cap iron,
Which was long told by Warren here, and very few other folks at the time which he "converted".
This has enabled me to plane all day without getting a reaction, because of a few things...

Not getting tearout anymore, which beforehand caused much dust in the workshop.
This led to me having to plane and scrape a whole lot, to get down to the bottom of the chunks I just tore out. (hard graft)
Don't need the scraper now, and I ain't' covered in dust while sweating it into me, and lastly,
My iron won't blunt near as quick, because I'm taking one long continuous shaving.
I suggest you check out "David W" youtube channel, for a good explanation, and the blog he made on a site called woodcentral.

Not saying you can't achieve this with the bevel up planes, but I wouldn't use the toothing iron, and keep the cut light as to not get tearout.
I've never looked back since, so only have a LN low angle block I've had for a long time, which I haven't really used.

Since I work with the reclaimed iroko, I have a few planes that I use, with no scrub plane profiled iron now, I have enough of a selection to never need to honk/waste a load off this
precious resource that can't be sustainable for all too long.
So that's fine by me, if I can be as parsimonious as possible.

Sorry I'll cut to the chase now

From the sound of things Osvaldo, you've had trouble with the cap iron before on a plane...
Did you ever check that it may have an uneven bend?
Apart from this issue, the only other one I can think of is the mating of the irons.


I damage my cap irons all the time on one beater no.4 plane that I have, planing painted iroko with cement embedded underneath.

A tip that I've never seen anyone else mention is that...
I use the corner of my "3 or 4 quid free shipping" ebay diamond hones, to hollow out the underside of the cap iron, before a few final rubs as you would on the whole surface.
The same principal as a stopped shaving, applies here.
If I don't do this, I will create a belly in the middle, and it won't sit tight on my iron, it needs to be a whole lot better fit if you intend to use the cap iron to full effect.
I also undercut the underside of it quite a bit more than most, to have a better pinching force on the iron.

I suggest you get a cheap diamond plate for fettling a cap iron, Keep an eye out for Ultex stones when they go on that annual half price discount, as you can buy one for less than 20 quid.
Maybe other similar diamond hones are nearly as cheap, I don't know?, but those are bonded to a chunky nickel coated plate, and not a credit card strip of metal.
It's nice to know you can have a flat surface you can rely on for working on the cap iron.



Would love to test one of those Low angle jacks out on the shooting board, that's where it would reside if it were my shop.


Best of luck
Tom