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Thread: Shooting Planes - Are they worth it?

  1. #31
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    Removing the wood up to such lines doesn't require particularly accurate tools or expensive saws, planes, chisels, or jigs and fixtures that go out of truth when weather moves through.
    Part of being successful at making things out of wood is how to work with the changes caused by occurrences of weather changes.

    We have squares and gauges not only to guide our work but to also check and verify our work.

    If a person likes the coarseness of sawn wood, then so be it. If one wants a plane smoothed surface on their end grain, then let them do it with the convenience of a shooting board or with a plane on a piece mounted in a vise.

    Heck, some of my saw cut ends have been squared with a chisel just for the experience.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    It's much easier to work to the accuracy of one's squares and other gauges than to the accuracy of the tools themselves. The saying "the tail wagging the dog" describes the latter alternative perfectly. Tools don't need to be perfect, the gauges just need to reflect the level of accuracy within which you'd like to work. This is a hard concept to get one's head around if you started out in the craft using mostly machinery and didn't have a baptism in hand tool work early on. In this scenario the machinery has to be accurate or you're left standing there with your manhood in your hand wondering what to do next when it isn't. You'll continue to chase your tail until you get this important concept.

    If you can work to the accuracy of a crisp and not too deeply scribed knife line, that's almost always all that's needed. Removing the wood up to such lines doesn't require particularly accurate tools or expensive saws, planes, chisels, or jigs and fixtures that go out of truth when weather moves through. What's left behind is the mark you made with square or gauge and knife. There will be no evidence that a $40 plane, or an $800 plane, $400 saw, or $150 chisel, removed the waste material.

    If you aren't working to lines you've become totally dependent on the accuracy that HAS to be inherent in tools, jigs and fixtures. You're back to square one as a machine tool woodworker at this point, without the labor-saving benefit, but you haven't realized it yet.
    I like and regularly use my LV Shooter. No apologies. I absolutely agree that "you dont have to have it". I too can plane to a line as suggested. But I am merely a hobbyist. In addition to building things, part of my interest in the hobby include trying new tools. It "floats my boat". I agree it's a different story for craftsmen making their living at it.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
    - Sir Edmund Burke

  3. #33
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    Being a tool junkie, and also having a wife that regularly looks at what I have and don't have, then using that as a basis for presents, I have many tools. I like my miter trimmer, having used it as recently as last evening. But I also like my shooting board! For General work, I use whatever plane is handy, then test for square, both ways. For close work, I use my LN #9 shooting plane. BUT, the sweetest shooting plane is what LV refers to as their "Veritas Miter Plane". For me, the fit to my hand is perfect and cut is predictable.

    Regardless of method, testing is needed: either plane to lightly scribed line, or if using a shooting board, test for square both ways. If using a miter trimmer, watch your fingers?
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

  4. #34
    My LN #9 bought pre-production has paid for itself many times over. It has been a workhorse in my shop and on site during trim projects. No regrets.

  5. #35
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    One day I would like to get a shooting plane, just don't have the money for it right now. So I currently use a Millers Falls No14 and carefully plane to the scribe line. Takes forever but, you gotta do what you gotta do...

  6. #36
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    Yep...
    Bishop's Jig, shot the edge.JPG
    Stanley No. 3c, type 11/12....with a SW iron...White Oak. Bandsaw had left a very rough cut..
    Bishop's Jig, rough cuts.JPG
    Was quick enough to just clamp it into the end vise. Then plane the rough stuff away.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Part of being successful at making things out of wood is how to work with the changes caused by occurrences of weather changes.

    We have squares and gauges not only to guide our work but to also check and verify our work.

    If a person likes the coarseness of sawn wood, then so be it. If one wants a plane smoothed surface on their end grain, then let them do it with the convenience of a shooting board or with a plane on a piece mounted in a vise.

    Heck, some of my saw cut ends have been squared with a chisel just for the experience.

    jtk
    I just want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that end grain be left rough, certainly not when it's exposed. But you don't have to have a shooting board to smooth it, nor do you need one to square an end. If you have a board/plane combination that stay dead square that's great -- you can forgo knifing at least the first end, square it up with the board without marking/knifing, though presumably one has to mark the other end to length, saw it, and then perhaps smooth it depending on what kind of joinery is to be cut on the board ends. As an example, I don't personally mind if the ends of a through dovetail on the back of a drawer show a few saw marks, but these are usually rectified in the clean up and polishing after the drawer is glued up -- no need to shoot the ends beforehand, as the entire drawer will be shot to fit into its opening.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Kamery View Post
    One day I would like to get a shooting plane, just don't have the money for it right now. So I currently use a Millers Falls No14 and carefully plane to the scribe line. Takes forever but, you gotta do what you gotta do...
    In my experience, shooting goes rather quickly. How much material are you removing?

    Technique may also play a role in your shooting work.

    First is getting the blade set up for shaving end grain. It needs to be very sharp. In my experience setting the blade to take as thin of shaving as possible on edge grain will get you close. In my experience, the blade will then need to be set a hair deeper to make a shaving on end grain. It should make a shaving and not dust. The piece being worked is held with one hand and the plane with the other. Hold the work against the fence and move the plane so the toe is touching the work while the plane is against the side of the bed. (the bed is what the work is on) Then push the plane forward to take the first shaving. Withdraw the plane only to the toe then with the hand holding the work move the piece as needed to register against the plane's toe while holding the plane against the bed and make another shaving, repeat.

    With a little practice this will go rather fast.

    Here is something that made shooting a bit more comfortable with a bench plane:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?130114

    Derek Cohen has two much more elegant 'hot dogs' on his web site:

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...LV%20LAJ1.html

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...ck%20pics.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    I just want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that end grain be left rough, certainly not when it's exposed. But you don't have to have a shooting board to smooth it, nor do you need one to square an end. If you have a board/plane combination that stay dead square that's great -- you can forgo knifing at least the first end, square it up with the board without marking/knifing, though presumably one has to mark the other end to length, saw it, and then perhaps smooth it depending on what kind of joinery is to be cut on the board ends. As an example, I don't personally mind if the ends of a through dovetail on the back of a drawer show a few saw marks, but these are usually rectified in the clean up and polishing after the drawer is glued up -- no need to shoot the ends beforehand, as the entire drawer will be shot to fit into its opening.
    It is only different ways different folks do similar tasks. In your example of a drawer, all my components usually have the ends smoothed and squared on a shooting board. This makes for easier, smoother marking with a wheel or pin gauge. Trimming for final fit of a drawer for me isn't done on a shooting board.

    Different strokes for different folks.

    My current shooting board can be used from either side:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244777

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    In my experience, shooting goes rather quickly. How much material are you removing?

    Technique may also play a role in your shooting work.

    First is getting the blade set up for shaving end grain. It needs to be very sharp. In my experience setting the blade to take as thin of shaving as possible on edge grain will get you close. In my experience, the blade will then need to be set a hair deeper to make a shaving on end grain. It should make a shaving and not dust. The piece being worked is held with one hand and the plane with the other. Hold the work against the fence and move the plane so the toe is touching the work while the plane is against the side of the bed. (the bed is what the work is on) Then push the plane forward to take the first shaving. Withdraw the plane only to the toe then with the hand holding the work move the piece as needed to register against the plane's toe while holding the plane against the bed and make another shaving, repeat.

    With a little practice this will go rather fast.

    Here is something that made shooting a bit more comfortable with a bench plane:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?130114

    Derek Cohen has two much more elegant 'hot dogs' on his web site:

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...LV%20LAJ1.html

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...ck%20pics.html



    It is only different ways different folks do similar tasks. In your example of a drawer, all my components usually have the ends smoothed and squared on a shooting board. This makes for easier, smoother marking with a wheel or pin gauge. Trimming for final fit of a drawer for me isn't done on a shooting board.

    Different strokes for different folks.

    My current shooting board can be used from either side:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244777

    jtk
    Jim, really appreciate the response, thank you. I should have clarified. I don't even shoot with that plane. I literally just plane the end grain to the scribe line (chamfering the end so I don't blow it out). I made a shooting board a while back and I honestly just need to take the time to make a better one. My board is awful. Your and Derek's post about adding a handle or hot dog is definitely something I gotta look at doing.

    On a somewhat related note, do you chamfer the back side of your piece when shooting? Or is the the fence holding it so it doesn't split the wood?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    In my experience, shooting goes rather quickly. How much material are you removing?

    Technique may also play a role in your shooting work.

    First is getting the blade set up for shaving end grain. It needs to be very sharp. In my experience setting the blade to take as thin of shaving as possible on edge grain will get you close. In my experience, the blade will then need to be set a hair deeper to make a shaving on end grain. It should make a shaving and not dust. The piece being worked is held with one hand and the plane with the other. Hold the work against the fence and move the plane so the toe is touching the work while the plane is against the side of the bed. (the bed is what the work is on) Then push the plane forward to take the first shaving. Withdraw the plane only to the toe then with the hand holding the work move the piece as needed to register against the plane's toe while holding the plane against the bed and make another shaving, repeat.

    With a little practice this will go rather fast.

    Here is something that made shooting a bit more comfortable with a bench plane:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?130114

    Derek Cohen has two much more elegant 'hot dogs' on his web site:

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...LV%20LAJ1.html

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...ck%20pics.html



    It is only different ways different folks do similar tasks. In your example of a drawer, all my components usually have the ends smoothed and squared on a shooting board. This makes for easier, smoother marking with a wheel or pin gauge. Trimming for final fit of a drawer for me isn't done on a shooting board.

    Different strokes for different folks.

    My current shooting board can be used from either side:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244777

    jtk
    Without addressing each point specifically -- way too slow. You don't need to mark the end grain for the tails. You just saw them out. A pin board straight off a back(ed) saw is generally smooth enough for marking from the tails, but a few strokes with a plane is fine if you just have to, that can be done upright in a vise in a few seconds. Cosmetic clean up at the joints themselves happens after glue up when it all is put to truth for size, glue drips, saw marks, fingerprints, bench dings, general grunge, etc. The whole schmear in one.

    Again, what you are proposing is more or less machine-tool oriented approach when all the individual workpieces pieces are very clean coming straight off the chop saw or tablesaw. This is not how hand tool woodworking is done, at least not done at some speed. If you feel that you need perfectly cosmetically clean ends to do dovetailing you're missing the point, and might as well use a tablesaw or power miter saw to square up and then cut your pieces to length. Even decorative, exposed dovetails usually don't need the frou-frou treatment before they're glued up. In fact if you do so you may be missing an opportunity to fix a few minor boo-boos that you could have fixed if you'd just waited.

    I need to subscribe to view photos. I'll do that soon.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 05-31-2019 at 1:16 PM.

  11. #41
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    You don't need to mark the end grain for the tails.
    Charles, are you suggesting that marking tails before sawing is a machine-tool orientated procedure?

    Cosmetic clean up at the joints themselves happens after glue up when it all is put to truth for size, glue drips, saw marks, fingerprints, bench dings, general grunge, etc. The whole schmear in one


    In my case, I do not shoot ends for cosmetic purposes. I shoot to size a board. Squaring at the same time.
    The whole schmear in one.

    If you feel that you need perfectly cosmetically clean ends to do dovetailing you're missing the point, and might as well use a tablesaw or power miter saw to square up and then cut your pieces to length.
    It is not important to be cosmetically clean. It is important to be square. However one chooses to do this is just another method. Even if one uses a machine to trim to size, it may still be necessary to fine tune to fit a drawer front. Shooting works. The vise works. Choices.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  12. #42
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    You don't need to mark tails. Space them by eye and saw them out. If the angles aren't perfectly consisten it doesn't matter, the pin board will be marked and sawn to the state of the tail board. A few degrees difference will never be noticed and the fit perfect as long as the pin board is sawn out well.

    How much time do you suppose you've spent making, and keeping true, the various shooting boards I assume you must have?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    You don't need to mark tails. Space them by eye and saw them out.
    Frank Klausz does not mark either. I think hand tool professionals work very efficiently.

  14. #44
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    On a somewhat related note, do you chamfer the back side of your piece when shooting? Or is the the fence holding it so it doesn't split the wood?
    Yes, often this is done by holding the piece at an angel on the shooting board and running the plane over the corner.

    You don't need to mark the end grain for the tails.
    Of course, many cut tails or pins by eye. Though marking a base line is usually handy. This again is a matter of "different stokes for different folks."

    a few strokes with a plane is fine if you just have to, that can be done upright in a vise in a few seconds.
    With a shooting board, one doesn't even have to take the time to crank a vise handle to close and open the vise.

    If you feel that you need perfectly cosmetically clean ends to do dovetailing you're missing the point
    Actually my reason for using the shooting board on dovetailed constructions is to ensure each piece exactly matches its opposite component in length. It is easier to make things square when the work is milled to be square.

    BTW, there is no chop saw or table saw in my shop. My sawing is done with hand saws or on rare occasions a bandsaw.

    Cosmetic clean up at the joints themselves happens after glue up when it all is put to truth for size, glue drips, saw marks, fingerprints, bench dings, general grunge, etc. The whole schmear in one.
    Another difference in our work methods. For me it is less work to keep the work neat from the start instead of trying to clean it up at the end.

    Unless there are super critical dimensions involved, my pieces are seldom scribed before shooting. The work piece is usually set at an angle against the fence. A few passes are made to chamfer the corner. The piece is then flipped so the side with the chamfered corner is against the fence and a few passes are taken. This is very quick and easy.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 05-31-2019 at 6:03 PM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  15. #45
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    Just for the fun of it a video was made.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M07-HOLArhk

    The piece of scrap used for this demonstration is ash.

    It took more time to get this posted on Youtube than it took to take the camera out to the shop, set up the camera and do the shooting.

    One problem with old electronics like cameras and computers is things change and they no longer talk well to each other. Youtube has some technical difficulties with older hardware.

    Hopefully the video works.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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