Face vs end grain knobs?

[Alex Zeller]

Yesterday I was near a Rockler so I stopped in (first time). The store wasn't too big but they had a lot of pieces of wood for turners. At the front door was a 4' square box full of round blanks (limited on time I didn't really look at them). I really stopped to get a tall feather board for resawing. But I found myself over by the pen blanks. In catalogs they often have 3/4" x 3/4" blanks, which are a little small for other things. Rockler had lots of larger sizes. I picked up a couple of 2"x2"x12" purple heart, red heart, and padauk. The purple heart is covered in sealer so I don't know if it's dry.

I'm thinking about trying to make some knobs for box lids. I have a sugar maple that I turned several bowls and lids from that are drying and thought maybe the contrasting color would be nice. So far the only lids I have made have been where the knob is just a part of the lid and the top of the lid is face grain. To maximize the wood it would make the top of the knob end grain. I did a google to see what the knobs would look like but that doesn't really give me a good idea what it would look like on a lid. Would a face grain lid with an end grain knob on top look "wrong"? Since the roughed maple lids are months away from being dry all I can do is guess.

The reason for asking is I might need to buy stuff to be able to turn it. I have a Vicmac 120 chuck and don't have a set of jaws that will hold something that small. Right now about the only way I could turn them with what I own is to cut them into 2" cubes and super glue them to a scrap block (then I could turn them with the grain pointing any direction I want). Is this the best way or would it be worth while to get something like Vicmarc's long nose jaws. I like the idea of the jaws moving the knob away from the body of the chuck but that could be just in my mind.

My idea was that I could use the jaws and tail stock to hold the blank. I could then turn a tenon on the tail stock side and turn the side of the knob. Once done I could cut the knob off of the blank with my chop saw then put the tenon in the chuck and finish off the top of the knob. Is this a good approach or am I just making it more complicated to justify buying a set of jaws?

Here's the last one I made. I used cherry since I had a piece of 8/4 lumber that wasn't kiln dried properly for the lid.
cherry box.jpg

[John K Jordan]

...Would a face grain lid with an end grain knob on top look "wrong"?...

I don't think end grain will look odd on a face grain lid unless you use the same wood and try to match the color. If you want to do that, maybe consider putting a thin layer of contrasting wood between the lid and the knob. I think this works especially well if you use a layer of the same contrasting wood elsewhere in the piece, perhaps at the base or maybe below the rim.

In the second picture below I did use poplar for the vessel, lid, and knob. The knob is a little lighter in color so I think it's ok.

I make most knobs in the end grain "spindle" orientation, even if the lid is face grain. The diameter of the hole and tenon is small so wood movement isn't extreme.

The Vicmark long-nosed jaws do seem good for that type of turning, the range in compression with the 120 chuck appears to be 1-1/8" to 2-7/8". I do a LOT of things that size and I use either the Nova long nose jaws or the Nova 35 or 45mm jaws to hold thin, and the 20, 25mm or pin jaws when the things are small. You shame the craft if you have to think twice about expanding your library of chuck jaws! (I go a different route and get more chucks too so I don't have to change jaws AND can keep work in progress mounted on one chuck while using another to makes knobs and such. )

I usually mount the block and turn the outside without tailstock support, leaving room to the left to make a tenon but at first just mark where it will go with a parting tool. (I don't turn the tenon until last to keep the wood thicker and stronger.) After the exposed part is done completely, sanded and maybe finished, I size the tenon and make it a bit longer than needed, then cut it off with the parting tool. Clean up the center if needed with a knife or skew chisel.

Sometimes I want a curve of the top to flow into the shape of the knob so I turn the base of the knob a little oversize, glue it on the lid, then finish turning the lid and blend the two shapes. I did that on the BOC box in the third photo below (also using a thin layer of walnut between the cherry lid and knob.

Many of my knobs are for Beads of Courage boxes so in addition to gluing the knob I cut a recess in the inside of the lid and drill and couuntersink a hole for a screw, hiding the screw with a Beads of Courage ceramic bead or a piece of contrasting wood. The important thing for these knobs is being easy to grab, looks are secondary. Here are a few, one carved:

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And for something completely different, some brass turned on the wood lathe:
Nonis_goblet2.jpg

If you lived closer you could visit and get some small knob-sized blanks. I have tubs with hundreds, sorted roughly by size - mostly domestics but a lot of exotics too. I don't much like padauk since the color usually changes quickly. Some purpleheart also changes fairly quickly while other. I do like using exotics so I keep ebony, olive, bubinga, and a bunch of others. (I made a list once and had something like 125 species on my shelves. Yikes, I'll have to work fast to use it all before I kick the bucket!)

JKJ

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Knob like a drawer pull or a finial? I put a finial (thinish and delicate) on my boxes. Therefore that means end grain. Personally I dont think there is anything "wrong" with end grain on a side grain top, or vice versa. Perhaps as JKJ mentioned, matching could be a problem, and that accent feature will help. (thanks! I have to remember that)
I relish ANY excuse to buy a new tool though. Make it complex, and get a new whole chuck with small jaws..... That will make things way easier.

[Alex Zeller]

I ordered the long nose jaws last night. I wanted to order a set of 4" jaws as well but they were out of stock (I'm sure Packard or Craft supply has them in stock). Normally I just turn the wood that I have on my property (though I do have a small supply of Tigerwood from my deck). Buying the exotic wood was more of an impulse buy than anything. I can't see myself turning a whole bowl out of an exotic wood simply because I don't have easy access to any and I just can't justify the cost. Trying to mix in small pieces though seams like a good compromise. Rockler is limited to what they have on hand in the store. The wood on my property is limited to birch (yellow and white), maple (red, black, and sugar), cherry, beech , popular, and ash(I haven turned the last 3 yet). All are light colored woods so when I have the chance I opt for dark colored woods. About the only dark wood around here is walnut and it's limited but I can occasionally find some for a reasonable price.

[John K Jordan]

...I can't see myself turning a whole bowl out of an exotic wood simply because I don't have easy access to any and I just can't justify the cost.

...The wood on my property is limited to birch (yellow and white), maple (red, black, and sugar), cherry, beech , popular, and ash(I haven turned the last 3 yet). All are light colored woods so when I have the chance I opt for dark colored woods.

I understand what you are saying about turning bowls from expensive exotics. About 10 years ago I got some big chunks in an auction, bloodwood, tigre caspi, pink flame, and some others. For example the bloodwood is big enough for a 10" bowl 6" deep. That could make a beautiful bowl but I'll probably cut it up into smaller pieces - I could make a lot of finger tops, hand mirrors, ring keepers, lidded boxes, etc.

We have generally the same species you mention. There is a lot of walnut and occasionally I'll get a big log I cut into slabs and chunks. Do you have persimmon? Some (but not all) of it is darker than most of the others. Some cherry I cut is much, much darker than others, maybe something in the soil. My favorite local wood though is dogwood - almost white.

Have you ever turned ebony or african blackwood? Some of each often has beautiful brown streaks. Some wood dealers think it's made from gold but you can sometimes find it for a reasonable price - fantastic for small things like knobs and finials. I bought a bunch of of long pieces of 1x1 (some 1-1/8" square) for about fifty cents an inch. I know a guy now who has been selling 1x1x12" gaboon ebony sticks for $5 each. He sent me USPS flat rate box full - if you are interested send me a PM and I'll see if his price is the still the same or give you his number.

These dealers usually have clarinet bell blanks of african blackwood for not too much - they are short (maybe 4-5" long") but maybe 3" across at the wide end. Good for a variety of things. I made this lidded box from one (dogwood spindles for the stand):

pod_box_comp.jpg

JKJ

[Alex Zeller]

Persimmon doesn't grow this far north. Cherry does seam to be all over the place. Usually you can't tell just how dark it'll get until long after it's finished and in the sun. I usually only cut them and hard maple when the tree is damaged and needs to some down. Even red maple seams to be one of those trees that until it's cut and finished you don't know what color it'll be. I've seen it from a nice yellow color to silver gray. Hopefully the club members know of local sources for some of the exotic woods.

Since I have been turning for less than a year I'm still trying to get the aesthetics right on different shapes. Mixing different species to get a nice contrast is very different. I've never worked with vivid dyes before so using them in a project usually doesn't come to mind. I find that turning smaller stuff tends to be harder for me. I think that's more finesse that comes with time. I've made some buttons that are 1 1/4" in diameter but anything smaller I haven't had a lot of success with. I think it's more that if I'm turning a 9" bowl and have to take an extra 1/4" off of it because the shape isn't right it's no big deal. But when it's only 3/4" there's not much room.

I made an ugly vase with the idea that it was thick enough to carve several times. They wife put flowers in it and will not let me touch it so I never got the chance to carve it. I don't know if it just looks ugly to me or if it's really ugly. I'm hoping that seeing what others have made at the club will help.

I do like the idea of putting a thin layer of a contrasting wood between the knob and the rest of the lid. In fact what I was thinking about was cutting the bowl part of the box in half and sandwiching a 1/4" layer of something that's different enough to be noticeable between them and gluing it back together. Doing a strip in both the bowl and the lid really hadn't crossed my mind until I saw your 3rd picture. Since I mostly have lighter color woods to play with maybe I could try dying the thin wood.

As the number of bowls, platters, and boxes increase I'm finding that I need to give them away or run out of room. I don't mind them looking unique or even simple compared to what others here can do but I would like them to look pleasing to the eye.

[John K Jordan]

... I find that turning smaller stuff tends to be harder for me. I think that's more finesse that comes with time. ...

You've discovered the secret of turning expertise! I can give you a list of expert turners who say the same thing - get proficient at spindle turning first to learn the fine tool control that will let you turn anything, including big bowls and platters. It doesn't always work the other way. I've read that across the ocean an apprentice turner wasn't allowed to move to face turning until he mastered spindle turning, perhaps after a year or so.

I start all new turners out with the skew chisel even if they've never seen a lathe before, then we go to roughing gouge and bowl gouge. After learning to handle those I encourage an exercise to hone skills - finger tops!

tops_comp2c.jpg

I've turned 100s of these, send 50 at a time with a missionary to an orphanage in Romania. Make them from wood as small as 3/4" up to 2" or so or sometimes larger if I'm feeling crazy. I make up shapes as I go.

tops_comp.jpg big_top_IMG_20171217_072821_499.jpg

They don't have to be highly refined and kids of all ages will still love them. I like to friction burn lines on some with a thin wire, occasionally add color. These show the procedure - turn the point end (bottom) first, then the back, then the handle. I sand and often even finish each stage before going to the next - once you start to reduce the diameter for the handle you can't go back and touch the rest. (I usually use Mylands Friction Polish or "danish" oil.)

top_sequence.jpg top_lathe.jpg

For small diameter tops I might chuck a 6" or 8" long piece of wood and turn two or three in a row.

With clean cuts very little sanding is needed, usually with just a bit of 600 paper. I tried this one (dogwood) with no sanding at all - surface is off the spindle gouge:

top_dogwood_nosanding_IMG_4.jpg

Any wood is good but I prefer harder woods, the harder the better - dogwood, hard maple, persimmon, "ironwood", hard exotics. I've made them from metals and plastics too:

aluminum_brass_plastic.jpg acrylic_top_yellow_small.jpg

Try it! After turning only a dozen I guarantee you will start to get real comfortable with the spindle gouge and knobs and such will be trivial! Or your money back.

JKJ

[Alex Zeller]

I've turned a few spindle type things, usually goblets. I don't even own a spindle gouge yet and only one skew. I gravitated towards bowls because, in part, I don't have kids. I've tried to find purpose for what I make (even if it's nothing more than a place for a cat to sleep). Bowls are easy to give away to adults as gifts. I do have a step granddaughter who is just coming to that age where a top may interest her (the wife is going to try to take her on a llama walk this summer).

With the new bandsaw I can easily pull some dry wood off the firewood pile and cut it to size/ removing the checking. I haven't had a lot of luck using the worm screw and even the smaller diameter holes on my face plate which means using a pretty large piece of wood. When I get the long nose jaws I think making tops should be much easier. Honestly I was hoping to be more active with the local club so I could see/ ask questions while someone else was turning.
spaulted.jpg

[John K Jordan]

I haven't had a lot of luck using the worm screw and even the smaller diameter holes on my face plate which means using a pretty large piece of wood.

Screws are nearly useless in end grain.

You can use larger jaws for smaller square pieces by making a wooden insert consisting of four pieces squeezed tight by the chuck. (Turn a cylinder, cut into quadrants, then cut the center points off to make flats to fit the wood.) But having the right jaws is MUCH quicker/easier.

To hold something small you can also turn a tenon on the end of a spindle held between centers then jam or glue it into a hole drilled into a piece of face grain wood fastened to the faceplate or held in a chuck. Not my favorite method.

Another easy way to hold small things like knobs is to turn a 1/2" tenon on the back end of the knob-sized blank and grip it with a 1/2" 2MT collet held with a drawbar. (1/2" is the largest 2MT collet I know of.) This is extremely secure. You can also splurge for a collet chuck with a set of collets that will hold a variety of tenon sizes, but this is expensive. The 1/2" 2MT collet is only about $10. I have sets of these from 1/8" to 1/2". This is a 1/2" collet:

collet_2MT.jpg collet_finials.jpg

I've used these for thin spindles like finials. Should probably work ok for short things up to a couple of inches in diameter.

JKJ

[Jim Outman]

Started out turning little Christmas trees and ornaments out of cedar. Got some cherry that was cracked when I got it, but sections are large enough for ornaments and tops. My grandpups would love tops. The mallet was my first turn.

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[Reed Gray]

I do have a video up on You Tube about turning drawer pulls, which was the first thing I ever turned. In building the hew house and shop, I am turning all of my drawer pulls out of as many different kinds of wood that I can dig up in my shop. Birds Eye maple, and lace wood look better if they are turned side grain. Most of the rest are turned end grain. I do show a mandrill that I made for turning them. No problems with turning end grain as long as the pilot hole isn't too big and you don't over tighten.

robo hippy

[Alex Zeller]

I did a search and found your video Reed. Thanks. I haven't had a chance to do much of anything in the last two weeks, hopefully in the next could days I'll be able to get some time on the lathe. Working full time and other life events just takes away too much time from hobbies. I have a large scrap of wood that similar to your block that you have your wood screw mounted that I mount to a face plate. But centering it repeatedly isn't that accurate so I hadn't thought about using it like you do. I'll make another so I can clamp it with the jaws and try your method. When I get time I'm going to make a few tops as john had suggested from some scrap pieces of wood. At the same time I'll experiment with your way too.