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Thread: Clear Vue Cyclones - how can they cost so little?

  1. #31
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    As pointed out in previous posts, there is NO correlation between 'cost', and 'price'. There used to be, but any decent marketeer in this day and age would be immediately fired for pricing a product based on the cost it takes to manufacture it (their job is to maximize price/revenue based on what the market will bear). Dont get me wrong, some P/L 'business unit', does have to consider both of these to ensure a profit is made.

    But my point is we as consumers fall into the trap of evaluating the market price (the only thing we see... we do not see the actual cost to manufacture) as direct reflection of product cost (materials, design, assembly, labor rates, REGULATORY APPROVALS, safety testing, etc etc). There is still distribution, marketing, sales, administration, etc etc that goes on top that, then of course a profit markup. Which can all vary dramatically. Sometimes small businesses can run leaner on some of these items and thus make money when a large company would not.

    So while its great to understand design differences and how they impact performance. They may not be directly (indirect perhaps) correlated to the cost of an item.

    (ignore if off topic - the original post was asking how there can be such a difference in price (cost to the consumer) of different products from different companies that do the same thing)
    Last edited by Carl Beckett; 05-24-2019 at 8:11 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    It may if you have a fire claim... (speculation on my part)
    My neighbor is a power electronics expert consultant (and university professor) and has a very nice business evaluating designs for the courts as a result of lawsuits. I guarantee if there is property damage or injury that results in a lawsuit, having a UL (or CE or TUL or other) certified design makes a difference. It will not get you 100% off the hook, but I think any lawyer will tell you it is a good thing to have if you end up in court.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beckett View Post
    My neighbor is a power electronics expert consultant (and university professor) and has a very nice business evaluating designs for the courts as a result of lawsuits. I guarantee if there is property damage or injury that results in a lawsuit, having a UL (or CE or TUL or other) certified design makes a difference. It will not get you 100% off the hook, but I think any lawyer will tell you it is a good thing to have if you end up in court.
    What is there to certify in a clearvue cyclone other than the Leeson electric motor?
    The specs on the Leeson motors I checked included language concerning UL and CSA safety requirements.
    The wiring between the motor and the power pole is certified by the local electrical inspector.

  4. #34
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    Ahhh, you can always count on dust collection, Festool and Saw Stop threads to get "lively". :-)
    She said “How many woodworking tools do you need?”
    I said “Why? Do you know someone who is selling some?”


  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    What is there to certify in a clearvue cyclone other than the Leeson electric motor?
    The specs on the Leeson motors I checked included language concerning UL and CSA safety requirements.
    The wiring between the motor and the power pole is certified by the local electrical inspector.
    I do not actually know. My point was simply in response to the question of 'does UL mean anything anymore'. Whether a product was properly categorized and safety risk properly assessed - I do not know. So your point is that the UL stamp on the motor may be good enough. Could be true. Not sure. (Does UL cover 'only' electrical connections, or does it include other aspects of safety like exposed vanes, imbalance, proper install, packaging failure, potential for misuse, manuals, etc?) And if you are buying 'components' does that shift risk to the user doing the assembly?

    In theory this assessment was made during the development process prior to release for sale, and deemed good enough for that particular manufacturers appetite for risk.

    Glenn is correct. And by no means was I meaning to fan flames or come across as all knowing... could not be further from the truth so my apologies. (Just have seen first hand a handful of lawsuits due to product failures, which in some cases turned out to not be due to the product at all but instead customer neglect... and at least one case, even with UL stamp, was deemed inadequate design controls and the company was held liable). Also have experienced several instances of aggressive customer behavior trying to get a settlement that was undeserved (in the consumer world some bozo somewhere is going to sue, even if unfounded, just because they think they might get a big $$).
    Last edited by Carl Beckett; 05-24-2019 at 2:22 PM.

  6. #36
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    Good information and food for thought!

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beckett View Post
    I do not actually know. My point was simply in response to the question of 'does UL mean anything anymore'. Whether a product was properly categorized and safety risk properly assessed - I do not know. So your point is that the UL stamp on the motor may be good enough. Could be true. Not sure. (Does UL cover 'only' electrical connections, or does it include other aspects of safety like exposed vanes, imbalance, proper install, packaging failure, potential for misuse, manuals, etc?) And if you are buying 'components' does that shift risk to the user doing the assembly?

    In theory this assessment was made during the development process prior to release for sale, and deemed good enough for that particular manufacturers appetite for risk.

    Glenn is correct. And by no means was I meaning to fan flames or come across as all knowing... could not be further from the truth so my apologies. (Just have seen first hand a handful of lawsuits due to product failures, which in some cases turned out to not be due to the product at all but instead customer neglect... and at least one case, even with UL stamp, was deemed inadequate design controls and the company was held liable). Also have experienced several instances of aggressive customer behavior trying to get a settlement that was undeserved (in the consumer world some bozo somewhere is going to sue, even if unfounded, just because they think they might get a big $$).

  7. #37
    I always thought that if an electric / electronic product was not UL certified, it couldn't legally be sold in the USA.

    Online shopping kind of muddied those waters, but is that not technically correct?

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Speers View Post
    I always thought that if an electric / electronic product was not UL certified, it couldn't legally be sold in the USA.

    Online shopping kind of muddied those waters, but is that not technically correct?
    I don't believe there is any legal requirement, though any type of safety certification may serve as a legal liability shield. I have read that some retailers require a UL certification, or a letter stating that UL does not certify that type of product.

  9. #39
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    The fire marshall is the UL listing on the other side of the system. They'll sort out what actually occurred.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Jobe View Post
    The fire marshall is the UL listing on the other side of the system. They'll sort out what actually occurred.
    Yes. And sometimes the courts. My former company (consumer electronics) had a melted blob (product remains) come back to the lab once for analysis. The lawsuit accused it of malfunction and burning down her house. (note we do extensive safety certification on the end product including UL CE et al, which didnt 'prevent' a lawsuit but did help show proper design controls).

    Upon additional evaluation and dissecting the blob and we found a foil sticker in the middle of it. The kind of foil sticker used on the bottom of a candle. Turns out she had sat a candle on the product, which burned all the way down, which then set everything else on fire. But she tried to blame the product design...

    Another instance was the friend that does the electronics design. It was a toaster. The newer kind with push button controls made in asia. Malfunctioned and burned up a very expensive boat/yacht. Yes UL certified, but his testimony was that there wasnt enough isolation/shut down protection of the heater elements, nor sufficient design margin. (or something like this) And sided against the manufacturer. I now leave my toaster unplugged when not in use at his advice.

    The biggest number of lawsuits was a business I worked for that sent techs to peoples home. So it is people based service, delivering/interacting with the public. There would be an incident at least once a month, the stories were unbelievable (because, well, many of them were just not true, but goodluck figuring that out with two sides pointing fingers). I wished we had a UL type organization for that business to sort out the crazies!

    Any time you are dealing with the public. There will be a lawsuit sooner or later. A statistical inevitability...
    Last edited by Carl Beckett; 05-27-2019 at 6:28 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Speers View Post
    I always thought that if an electric / electronic product was not UL certified, it couldn't legally be sold in the USA.

    Online shopping kind of muddied those waters, but is that not technically correct?
    As a Canadian, I always expect that it would be the law, however in fact it isn't in the US.

    In Canada, it is the law.............Rod.

  12. #42
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    I suppose if your garage burns down some folks would blame the dust collector for a smoldering pile of dust spontaneously combusting and melting the cyclone to have flames escape to the open shop. Of course it would have nothing to do with all the cigarette butts thrown on the scrap pile along with the whiskey bottles..
    Bill

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    I suppose if your garage burns down some folks would blame the dust collector for a smoldering pile of dust spontaneously combusting and melting the cyclone to have flames escape to the open shop. Of course it would have nothing to do with all the cigarette butts thrown on the scrap pile along with the whiskey bottles..
    Bill
    Bill, you are a deliteful aspect of SMC.

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