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Thread: Need help from the shaper guru's

  1. #1
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    Need help from the shaper guru's

    Ok so I recently started a large project and could use some input on it from the shaper experts. I'm re-milling a custom t&g on something like 25,000 lf of flooring. The flooring is an "engineered core" made up of several layers of softwood about 1/2" thick. The face is end grain white oak about 3/16" thick. I have to rip the existing pieces in half lengthwise and the re-mill the cut edge into either a new tongue or groove. The job was set up by another shop who had done it previously and so I took their advice on how best to set it up. I'm running a normal corrugated 2 knife head with carbide knives. I'm using two different shapers running in the neighborhood of 6k rpm's, (one for tongue, one for groove), and feeding varies between 22 - 29 fpm as I'm trying to hone in on an ideal speed. My issue is too much chipping on the end grain. I thought this could be a problem, and it turns out it is. With the groove cut I'm only removing about 1/16" of the end grain face so have gotten about 3k lf of stock before the chipping started getting a bit iffy. However with the tongue cut I'm removing about 5/16" of face material and by about 1000 lf the chipping is problematic. At that rate I'd need to sharpen both sets of knives I have and have at least 2 more sets of knives made! I've tried slowing the speed way down to get more CPI but that doesn't seem to make a difference and will likely wear the carbide that much faster.

    So I have the client coming over to look at the edges. When I picked up the order they mentioned some problems with the quality of the previous batch and that I should contact the other shop as they supposedly had a solution.... their solution was that I should sharpen the knives So in the meantime I want to see about possible solutions I can offer to get a cleaner edge. I'm sure the tooling they use in the factory is some obscenely expensive custom made stuff. I'm wondering about something off-the-shelf that may get me by. I know there's an awful lot of stuff out there that I don't know about.... but maybe you guys do? I'm thinking a larger diameter head with 4+ insert knives might make a difference. I'm going to call CG Schmidt tomorrow as they have a 7" diameter coping head.... maybe could have custom inserts made for it? They also have an insert flooring head, but I don't think the diameter is large enough to affect any real difference? Anything else I should look into or recommendations? Not sure yet how much the client may be willing to spend or how clean they need those edges, but I'd like to have several options to offer for when they do come by.

    thanks,
    JeffD

  2. #2
    Just throwing this out there, but have you considered doing it in two passes, climb cutting the final light pass? Run the entire batch, then sharpen and do the final pass.

  3. #3
    The chipping on "end grain". If I understand right the whole top layer is end grain, I've never seen any thing like that.
    IS the whole layer end grain? If it is,then the only thing I can think of ,to try, is a no clearance fence.

  4. #4
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    Not clear, is the wood chipping or is the cutter chipping.

  5. #5
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    Hi, have you considered running the piece vertically against the fence and using a rebate head to mill the top of the tongue?

    I’m thinking that the scoring cutters may prevent chipping and they’re rotatable for sharpness.....Regards, Rod

  6. #6
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    Hey guys, so yes, the top layer is a roughly 3/16" slice of end grain oak, it's pretty unique stuff and so not a ton of info on how to deal with it.

    Two passes would possibly help Joe, but since it's 8 pallets of flooring in the neighborhood of 25k lf, that would not be practical.

    I don't think I could do the no clearance fence idea Mel. Currently I'm running the parts on an outboard fence to make sure all the parts are the exact same size. I'm removing the material needed to form the t&g plus almost 1/16". Normal for long grain cutting, though not sure it's helping with end grain. But to change any part of the operation now outside of the cutter type/size would require a LOT of extra time.

    Cant run vertically either Rod, as it would require multiple passes.

    My thought was a larger diameter cutterhead with multiple insert knives may be the way to go, but I'm having second thoughts on that as well. Another issue with this flooring is that its a press fit, so when it goes together you have to tap it a bit for it to fully seat into the next piece. With the corrugated knives it's not a problem as I had them grind the tongue knives a couple thousands oversize, allowing me to offset the knives just a bit until I get the fit just right. With an insert style knife I won't be able to do that. And since they'd be templating off of a wood sample.... just not sure the inserts would be perfect. This is one of those jobs that the more you think about it the more difficult it becomes.

    Jeff

  7. #7
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    When you say you are having problems with the end grain are you recutting the end match?

    I used that same flooring in my house and made some custom pieces so I could start in the middle and work both ways, and I made them with a 8" adjustable groover and had no tearout, but I did not redo the end match. That I know does not help you because two passes, but the large diameter cutter did fine, did not try a smaller one.

    Does this have an aluminum oxide coating on it already? That would be hard on cutters.

    Some of the things we get ourselves into because we like to eat!

  8. #8
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    No experience with what you are doing Jeff but if it’s a square T&G you could adjust the fit to your liking with reversed adj groover cutters or stacking rebate cutters. I know my insert cutters with the thin carbide leave a better finish than any of my other heads. This also might be a case where Z4 leaves a better finish than Z 2.

  9. #9
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    Short of highly specific cutters being made, I think your best solution will be climb cutting it all, but that seems to wear the knives quicker in my experience.
    The other 2 thoughts are, experiment with hook angle- I think less hook will help... , and a deeper cut on the pass.
    Chipping and tearout on sensitive woods like Birdseye or curly Maple for example benefit from deep passes vs light.
    Thats all I got.

  10. #10
    On second thought, climb cutting may give you a groove full of chips you'd need to clean out. What a nightmare that would be!

  11. #11
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    I have solved the groove full of chips with a strategically placed blowgun right after the outfeed fence. Kept it nice and clean, but you need a decent compressor......

  12. #12
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    Thanks again for the suggestions!
    Larry, your post surprised me just b/c this stuff is so uncommon!
    I’m not doing end matching, those are left alone, it’s only the edge I rip that needs to be milled. And no coating on it at all, it’s just cutting into the end grain oak that’s dulling the knives. I could probably go for a mile with the softwood as the glue lines are minimal.
    Joe, unfortunately not square edged. The tongue has a taper on one side so that it seats tightly when tapped to the next piece.
    Peter, I’ll ask the guys about hook angle when I take this set back to sharpen. I believe the 2 knife Schmidt heads I have are the preferred angle for hardwoods, but maybe the knives can be tweaked?
    I thought about climb cutting but that poses it’s own problems. As you mentioned the knives will wear even faster and the chips will be worse. I’m already having a tough time minimizing the dust blow back and that affects the grip of the rollers. So climb cutting would be hairy at best.
    I’m not sure the deeper cut will make a difference either. Reason being is I’m only removing 1/16” or so on the groove cut vs 5/16” on the groove cut and the chipping is very similar. Only real difference being the longevity of the knives.

    I do appreciate all the suggestions though! It’s just a tricky beast to tackle.
    Jeff

  13. #13
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    Flooring in general is much fussier than people know. I have a Weinig molder, and I write down all the measurements for axial and radial positioning for all molding profiles run. The machine has little to no wear, and runs manual digital counters measuring in increments of .001”, but still, the settings for flooring are really only rough guidelines.
    Flooring is one profile that I set by the “feel” of the way the groove just tucks under the tongue and hits the “interference fit” at about 1/16” before closing. That ensures the floor is held down tight on the groove side with no squeaking, but not needing to be BEAT into place.

    I have been asked on more than one occasion to evaluate flooring made by some shops nearby, AFTER the installer or contractor has install issues.

  14. #14
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    Peter, you aren't kidding! I'm spending probably close to an hour on the setups trying to get the right amount of offset in the knives to get a "perfect" fit. The groove knives are pretty close and only require about .002 of offset from one another. The tongue knives I had ground slightly oversize as the first grind was too loose even when I had the knives dead on to each other. Now I have them about .004 offset and am getting a good fit.

    I do think the shallower cut is working much better. I think I'm in the neighborhood of about 5k+ lf though the groove cut with the first set of knives. With the much deeper tongue cut I'm at the same lf but used two sets of knives.

    A couple pics I took this evening of the flooring in question....
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
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    i use a router table with a 1/4 round bit to round over 1" x 2" pine. if i go the way you are supposed to go, it chips and worse depending on grain, if i run them on the other side of the bit[the side that pulls the piece in] i get clean cuts.

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