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Thread: Mate vs Viceroy, carbide tool help/suggestions

  1. #1
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    Mate vs Viceroy, carbide tool help/suggestions

    I'm an occasional, somewhat new turner who until now has used only gouges. I very much enjoy them and they've given me good results, but I'm interested in trying out a carbide tool or two for the finishing cuts of small sized bowls in very hard woods.

    I'm wondering if anyone has any first hand experience of the differences between the Jimmy Clewes Mate tools and Hunter's Viceroy. They seem to be generally similar. From what I can tell, what differentiates the Viceroys are narrower shafts(and a choice of shaft widths,) and rounded corners that allow the tool to be used on an angle. For those that have used both, can you tell me which you prefer and why? The Hunters seem like they may be more versatile, but does this versatility matter much? What do you think? Which would you buy, a Hunter 1/2" Viceroy or the Clewe's Mate?

    And if you'd recommend neither, which would you suggest? Hunter makes a variety of high quality tools, and maybe the Hercules or Osprey or Badger would be more appropriate or more versatile or something I'd get more use out of over the years as my skills develop? But keep in mind, I really don't think I'll ever use these for roughing. Just finish cuts.

    Thanks in advance for your advice!

  2. #2
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    Hunter Viceroy, Hercules, etc.

    David,

    [I was just finishing this up this afternoon when the forum went down! Not long before I had saved a copy of what I wrote so I didn't have to start from scratch. ]

    I have both of those tools, the smaller Clewes Mate and the 3/8" Hunter Viceroy. Both work well for what they are designed for and both will give better results than the flat-topped carbide tools. The shaft on the Mate is wider, as you noted, making it easier for beginners to hold flat on the rest for scraping cuts. Both are good for that. The Mate may be a little more stable in clumsy hands since the bit is a little further away from the left edge of the tool, and the flat is wider. The tip is proportionally closer to the left edge on the Viceroy but I don't find that to be a problem. Both use the same Hunter cutter. Well, I don't know about the Clewes these days - it used the same Hunter cutters when Mike Hunter was making the tool before Clewes went off to do his own thing. (I have no idea what cutter is on the Mate now.)

    As you noted, the corners of the square Viceroy are knocked off (chamfered, not actually rounded) which will potentially let you use it at an angle. This is good for shear pull scraping cuts on the inside of small hollowed things with relatively large openings. But I don't like to use it for cuts such as I would with a gouge. It works extremely well in the scraping mode on both bowls and spindles - I demonstrated that recently, it can cut a surprisingly smooth cove on a spindle. For several reasons, some not appropriate on a public forum, I personally will not recommend buying a Clewes Mate tools.

    All that said, I rarely use either one except when I demonstrate them or hand one to a beginning turner. (after they learn to use the skew - first things first!)

    However I do use a number of the Hunter tools. My favorite for general use is the Hercules. I have both the 3/8" and 5/8" and I prefer the 3/8" because of the small cutter. I use it a little in the scraping mode but mostly as either bowl gouge or spindle gouge. My students have taken to it as well and several people who came to the shop to try the tools have bought one, some the 1/2" and some the 3/8".

    Unfortunately I never took a closeup of the Viceroy tool (a newer tool) next to to the Clewes, but here are two views of several others: the large Hercules, the small Hercules, the small Osprey, and the Clewes. You can see the angles of the cutters in the first photo. Those angles are what make the tools very controllable in the scraping mode and what let you easily use the Hercules and Osprey just like a gouge. (You can't easily use the Clewes like a gouge, or at least I can't.) The third photo is the top view of the Viceroy.

    HUNTER4_side_IMG_20160803_1.jpg HUNTER4_top_IMG_20160803_10.jpg Hunter_Viceroy.jpg

    The small Hercules, along with a couple of miscellaneous tools like a parting tool and some small scrapers, is usually the only tool I use on these pieces with wings. The girl in the second picture is making her first one, first real project, and her first time with the Hercules tool as well. Aced it!

    penta_olive_comp_IMG_7459.jpg Kristina_IMG_20171205_182111_870.jpg Kristina_platter_finished_comp3.jpg

    The Osprey is very similar but with the round shaft. Mike Hunter recommended the Hercules for the less experienced because it can be held flat, and the Osprey for the more experienced turner who wants to use it as a gouge. I told him I disagree! - I thing with the chamfered edges on the square shaft the Hercules is perfect for both uses. In fact, I rarely use the Osprey. The Hercules tools are a little stouter as well since there is extra metal from the square shaft.

    I use the Hercules the most with face turning such as the squarish pieces above and more "normal" bowls and platters. I do use it like a gouge on spindles at times, especially with very hard woods, acrylics, and aluminum - it can leave an almost polished surface on these. However, most of my spindle turning is with skews and spindle/spindle detail gouges. (BTW, if you don't have much experience yet with a skew and spindle gouge, I highly recommend working on that first to learn the fine tool control that will let you turn anything.)

    While I do sometimes use "traditional" bowl gouges for face work, usually Thompson gouges, the Hunter Hercules (and Osprey) both have an advantage over a bowl gouge that I never hear mentioned, that is, besides never having to sharpen: when cutting dry wood with a typical bowl gouge very hot chips can come right up the flute towards your hand. With the Hunter tools the chips are deflected at an angle which mostly miss the hand - much more comfortable! No need to wear a glove as some turners do. You might be able to see the chip action in the photo above of the girl turning the small squarish platter.

    The Badger tools are better for the work of deeper hollowing of things like vases and hollow forms, especially the combination of the straight and swan neck. You can use tools like the Hercules on the inside of hollow things but if you are not on your toes it's easy to touch the side of the cutter to the wood and cause a catch.

    BTW, I always buy the Hunter (and most other) tools without handles and make my own, usually make metal inserts to hold the tool. The first three Hunter tools in the first picture are a very small set designed for hollowing small things such as ornaments.

    finished_IMG_20150420_15371.jpg finished_small.jpg

    Do you have a turner near you with some of these you can try, perhaps a club member? I have people come here to try them. You can call Mike Hunter and ask questions - he will always answer the phone if he can or call you back. Tell him I said get the Hercules! If you can swing it, I don't think you can go wrong getting both sizes! You'd be covered for everything from small finger tops to larger things. I do recommend buying one extra cutter to have on hand.

    I think John Lucas has some YouTube videos on these tools.

    JKJ


    Quote Originally Posted by David Wadstrup View Post
    I'm an occasional, somewhat new turner who until now has used only gouges. I very much enjoy them and they've given me good results, but I'm interested in trying out a carbide tool or two for the finishing cuts of small sized bowls in very hard woods.

    I'm wondering if anyone has any first hand experience of the differences between the Jimmy Clewes Mate tools and Hunter's Viceroy. They seem to be generally similar. From what I can tell, what differentiates the Viceroys are narrower shafts(and a choice of shaft widths,) and rounded corners that allow the tool to be used on an angle. For those that have used both, can you tell me which you prefer and why? The Hunters seem like they may be more versatile, but does this versatility matter much? What do you think? Which would you buy, a Hunter 1/2" Viceroy or the Clewe's Mate?

    And if you'd recommend neither, which would you suggest? Hunter makes a variety of high quality tools, and maybe the Hercules or Osprey or Badger would be more appropriate or more versatile or something I'd get more use out of over the years as my skills develop? But keep in mind, I really don't think I'll ever use these for roughing. Just finish cuts.

    Thanks in advance for your advice!

  3. #3
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    Thank you John for your detailed description and comparison of these tools.

  4. #4
    I own the Viceroy, Osprey, Badger straight and swan and previously owned the large Hercules. All of these tools are very useful, but each has its really strong points and for that reason I think the “preference” ratio depends on one’s technique and style of turning - what one turns. I did not find the Hercules to be a good fit for what I do. For me, the straight Badger is more versatile and I use the swan neck often, but you can always own more than one!

    Left click my name for homepage link.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Keeton View Post
    ...each has its really strong points and for that reason I think the “preference” ratio depends on one’s technique and style of turning - what one turns. I did not find the Hercules to be a good fit for what I do....
    That's a excellent point! I'm sure the way I work and what I turn are different from many. I don't know if I clarified, but FWIW I also did not find the large Hercules useful and rarely use it. I mostly keep it around for others to come and try. Several friends have bought the large one after trying both, ignoring my suggestion.

    For anyone within driving distance of Knoxville who may want to see these in action I'll use them in my demo this month on the 21st and auction at least one afterwards, I haven't decided on the large or the small, maybe both. (the proceeds go to the club, not me!) Or come visit my shop and try them all for yourself.

    JKJ

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by John Keeton View Post
    I own the Viceroy, Osprey, Badger straight and swan and previously owned the large Hercules. All of these tools are very useful, but each has its really strong points and for that reason I think the “preference” ratio depends on one’s technique and style of turning - what one turns. I did not find the Hercules to be a good fit for what I do. For me, the straight Badger is more versatile and I use the swan neck often, but you can always own more than one!
    I own the same range of Hunter tools. I use the #5 Badger straight tool as much as the others combined. I find it the most versatile. As John remarked, what you turn will affect which tool might be more useful for you.

  7. #7
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    John,

    Thank you for this incredibly detailed and thoughtful explanation -- I can't tell you how grateful I am! You've really helped me better understand these tools, and of course, have prompted some follow-up questions. I hope you don't mind.

    Let me tell you a little bit more about why I'm considering carbide. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm a new-ish turner. A friend began teaching me about a year ago, and I absolutely fell in love with it. Since then, I've set myself up with a number of Doug Thompson's tools: a couple of spindle gouges, a 3/8" and a 1/2" bowl gouge, a skew chisel(which I haven't learned how to use yet,) a parting tool, and a roughing gouge. I really enjoy using them, get good results for a relative novice, and feel like they'll always be my go-to tools.

    I recently discovered, however, that I enjoy turning small to very small bowls pretty much more than anything else. Particularly in boxwood. I bought a few blanks and am planning on turning them into bowls soon. They'll range in size from about 2 1/2" in diameter and deep, down to about 1 3/8" in diameter and deep. Because of their small size, I figured a couple of smaller tools would be helpful. And because of the wood's hardness, I thought carbide might be the right choice.

    I briefly spoke with Mike Hunter the other day. He was extremely helpful and suggested I begin with the small Straight Taper tool, and the 1/2" Viceroy. These seem like wise recommendations, but I wanted to hear what others had to say. Especially concerning how the Mate relates to the Viceroy. You've made up my mind on that front... I'm going to go with the Hunter tool. But now I have a new choice to make... the 1/2" Viceroy or the 3/8" Hercules? They look like similar tools(square shafts, same size cutter, beveled corners) aside from the dog-legged position of the cutter on the Viceroy. I imagine this is what makes it a little tougher to use on a shearing cut vs. the Hercules. But on the other hand, this dog-legged profile might be beneficial when undercutting these bowl's rims. They won't be deep undercuts, just slight.

    But as I write this, I think maybe I'm asking the wrong question. Maybe the choice shouldn't be between the 1/2" Viceroy and 3/8" Hercules. Maybe it should be between the the 3/8" Hercules and the small Straight Taper tool. This taper tool uses the same cutter and same size bar stock. It's just tapered and not square like the Hercules. The loss of the taper will probably limit the undercutting it's capable of as compared to the Hercules, but that might not be much of an issue if I also purchase the 1/2" Viceroy. And the advantage of the Hercules will likely better tool control.

    So many considerations! What does everyone think? Which two should I go with: the straight taper tool, and/or 3/8" Hercules, and/or 1/2" Viceroy? I might be able to swing purchasing all 3, but it seems like there would be a bit of unnecessary overlap in this selection. As I mentioned, these tools will likely be used exclusively on the finishing/cleaning cuts of small bowls and maybe some small finials. But I'd still like maximize the range of uses in whatever I buy. For instance, wouldn't it be better to only get two now to leave room for a hooked taper tool down the road? Or maybe the Badger down the road for slightly larger bowls? Help me decide!

    Again, all advice is GREATLY appreciated.

    Best,

    David

  8. #8
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    Mike Hunter has always given me excellent guidance. Just saying.

    I suspect that whatever you select, it won't be your last tool purchase.

  9. #9
    You can easily do a slightly undercut rim with the tapered shank Badger. Follow Mike’s advice. He knows what he is doing!

    Left click my name for homepage link.

  10. #10
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    Here is my video on using the Viceroy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puK60q0qjx8&t=25s There is very little difference in the Viceroy and Mate tools. Mike changed the angle very slightly on the cutter and I like the way the support bar is ground which makes it a little easier to use as a bevel rubbing tool. A good tool for new turners. My favorite is still the Osrpey although I prefer the Viceroy or Hercules for roughing really out of round bowls. I did tests one day using my 5/8" bowl gouge, the big Hercules and the Viceroy. I found the Hunter tools were easier on my shoulder than the bowl gouge. Once it gets round I still like my bowl gouge but that's mostly because I have 30 years experience with it and it just feels more comfortable. I'm doing more and more with the Hunter tools however and there are some things they truely excell at. The # 5 is exceptional for doing the bottoms on boxes and steep sided bowls. You can do a bevel rubbing cut across the bottom which you can't do with any other tool. Leaves an incredible finish. I also use that tool to undercut the rim on the outside of bowls. Again it leaves a much better finish than scraping which is what I used to have to do. If you do an undercut on the inside the Hunter back cutter is exceptional.

  11. #11
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    I don't know where to sent this problem message.
    I can't open the jpeg files submitted by John Jordan, I'm logged in but I get this message when I clock on the image files.

    John Schlueter, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

    1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
    2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

  12. #12
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    John S, a recent change in the forum apparently limits photo viewing to Contributors.
    https://sawmillcreek.org/announcement.php?f=7&a=26
    Many Members have run into this in the past few days. Maybe this should be added as point #3 to the error message if that's possible.

    You can click on the "Donate" button in the blue menu banner at the top of every screen for info about Contributor status. The min cost is almost nothing.

    (Ha, I almost posted a picture of the menu banner but caught myself!)

    JKJ



    Quote Originally Posted by John Schlueter View Post
    I don't know where to sent this problem message.
    I can't open the jpeg files submitted by John Jordan, I'm logged in but I get this message when I clock on the image files.

    John Schlueter, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

    1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
    2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    John S, a recent change in the forum apparently limits photo viewing to Contributors.
    https://sawmillcreek.org/announcement.php?f=7&a=26
    Many Members have run into this in the past few days. Maybe this should be added as point #3 to the error message if that's possible.
    You can click on the "Donate" button in the blue menu banner at the top of every screen for info about Contributor status. The min cost is almost nothing.
    JKJ
    That announcement also says "This is the final change to let everyone know that we will soon convert to a subscriber based system. Members can use the Donate button to update their accounts here and restore their ability to view pictures and access file attachments."

    What does "subscriber based system" mean? Simply that a minimum donation will be required? Is there further information somewhere?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Henrickson View Post
    That announcement also says "This is the final change to let everyone know that we will soon convert to a subscriber based system. Members can use the Donate button to update their accounts here and restore their ability to view pictures and access file attachments."

    What does "subscriber based system" mean? Simply that a minimum donation will be required? Is there further information somewhere?
    I saw some questions and discussion of this in another thread or two, maybe a search? I didn't see any hard information but the impression I got was yes, some minimum donation will give full access. I personally saw no hint of the future minimum amount but the current minimum is $6 a year, pennies a day. I found it easier to sign up with the monthly option and let PayPal do the bookkeeping.

    After this change some people have decided it was worth it and signed up; some have been upset and said goodbye.

    There have been explanations of the reason for this change and from what I read it boils down to having enough funds to keep the forum running which I assume is considerable considering things like the internet provider, servers, maintenance, programmers, etc. Kieth, the owner/manager here wrote recently that the support from advertisers has dwindled due to the increased use of ad blockers. I don't use many forums but I know of another one with the same problem.

    JKJ

  15. #15
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    Thanks for the explanation. I’m happy to contribute to this forum. As an information resource it can’t be beat and at $6 or so it’s really a bargain.
    You are right, the notice should include a point #3 about payments. I think it should be point #1 since not being a financial contributor is more likely the reason for redirects to the error page.

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