Cedar platter and looking for method to take off tenon.

[Jim Outman]

Get off at 7 so don't have too much time after work but went out to shop, grabbed a piece of 2" thick cedar I'd been thinking about making a platter or something with. Cut a 12" blank on the bandsaw, mounted it and very carefully started turning it. Kinda scary as fast as it was turning on low speed, so I took it very easy until I got it round with no wobble. It all went very well, had only one ouch (major catch) that I was able recover from. Like working with cedar as it sands very easily, though I have to wear a dust mask or I'll be gagging afterwards. It turned out very nice.

Now I'm looking for a way to turn the tenon off the back without destroying my hard work. My first thought is using a 3/4" piece of plywood cut round and screwed into my faceplate, but I realize I have a 12" lathe and a nano meter of room from the bed so bolts with rubber or vinyl on the outside isn't going to work very well. It still has the center hole from the live center so centering it shouldn't be a problem. I can pick up some of that cushion material I've seen turner's use, which is like drawer cover from Dollar General. Then take most of it off, sand that down and use a Dremel or something to take the rest off. If anybody has suggestions, I'm still learning. Oh a Harbor Freight lathe in case you're wondering, though I'm getting jealous looking at what folks are doing with their Lagunas with reverse direction, LOL. I'll need to turn a bunch of bowls to pay for one of those.

[Jim Outman]

More pics.

[Barry McFadden]

I use Oneway Jumbo Jaws to hold the piece while I remove the tenon.... http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/pag...330,69091&ap=1

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I also use my Mega Jumbo Jaws like Barry, but since you don’t have any room left around your platter, that won’t work here.

So in your case I would turn a disk that fits the inside of your platter, use a soft material between the disk and your platter and hold the platter with your live center, then remove the tenon like you did with the inside stub, should work well.

[carl mesaros]

A Longworth chuck is handy but even better is a vacuum chuck.You'll wonder how you got along without one.

[Dave Mount]

You can certainly do this by buying more toolage made for this purpose, and don't mean to discourage that if you have the resources and inclination.

However, I don't own any of these specialty fixtures, and have turned hundreds of bowls and platters without them. The low cost, low tech way to do it is to screw a piece of plywood to your faceplate (bigger than the faceplate, smaller than the inside of the platter) and turn it to a round perimeter with a slight roundover at the edge (toward tailstock). With that done, capture the platter in compression with the tenon held by the tailstock center and the bottom of the platter facing the plywood disk. Put a piece of non-slip padding between the inside of the platter and the faceplate disk -- a piece of router mat works well. Check the alignment by turning things by hand -- if it seems like it's not well centered, loosen the tailstock a little and wiggle things around to improve the alignment -- important to realize that the alignment does not have to be perfect, you're only working the bottom. After it looks good when rotating it by hand, turn on the lathe at low speed and verify that all looks good.

Turn the tenon down to a small diameter. You have to decide what "small" means in this context. If you've never done it before, stop a little large until you get more comfortable with the technique. I usually go to <0.5", but cedar is soft and prone to splitting, so I might stop at an inch. Take the platter off, use a chisel to remove the bulk, then sand flush. Some people use a gouge ground to an acute angle and cut completely through the tenon while turning on the lathe -- I don't do this personally.

Remember what is holding the piece is just friction, the compression between tailstock and headstock. Don't take heavy cuts, and it's better to cut toward the headstock (e.g., a scraping cut on the bottom of the tenon using your bowl gouge) than toward the bed (e.g., as with a parting tool). The reason is that the cut toward the headstock is applying pressure in the same direction as the compression (i.e., against the plywood disc). A parting tool applies pressure sideways that must be opposed by friction. Doesn't mean you can't do that, you certainly can, just go easy on the pressure (sharp tools, light cuts, yada yada). I usually do as much as I can with a bowl gouge, then make some final light cuts with a parting tool.

I've used this technique hundreds of times, so it's perfectly effective -- but like all things, it can fail. There are two main ways it can fail. The first is that the tailstock splits the tenon once it gets small --which is why you should leave a little more meat when turning something soft and prone to splitting, like cedar. The other way is for the tenon to shear off along the grain (i.e., parallel to the bottom of the platter). Since the compression is working against this kind of failure, it usually happens when something suddenly applies a big lateral load away from the center, like accidentally touching your gouge to the outer part of the platter. Along these lines, I should emphasize that a large diameter compression-chucked piece (what this is called) is not one where you want to be revisiting any cuts out on the outer part if the piece. This is for finishing the bottom, close to the centerline axis of the lathe. It is poor at resisting loads (cuts) a long way from the centerline. Don't take any of this as intended to scare you off using this approach, just making sure you understand its limits.

Same technique works for bowls, but instead of plywood on a faceplate, take a piece of 4 x 4 and rough it round (spindle orientation), then grip one end in your scroll chuck and shape the other end to look something like the end of a baseball bat (flat end with a generous roundover). Rest of the process is the same.

Best,

Dave

[Alex Zeller]

I normally go with a mortise vs a tenon. I do have a set of cole jaws (mega jumbo jaws) but there's times when I just sand the mortise after making it so when I use the chuck to hold it I can just leave the mortise in the bottom of the bowl. At first I was going about a half inch deep as I gained experience. Now I make them anywhere from 1/8" to 1/4" deep. Rarely are the bottom of my bowls or platters thin enough where it could be an issue.

[Thomas Canfield]

Dave gave a good explanation for a jam chuck method. I would only add that I use a flush cutting saw with a protective sheet against bottom to cut of the reduced tenon nub and then sand or use a sharp chisel to reduce the short rise. I have never had a failure with the flush cut saw, but have had with wild grain using a chisel. Simple way to remove tenon and works where other methods will not work including vacuum chuck (holy or crack wood), cole jaws (piece too large), hollow forms, etc.

[John K Jordan]

Yes, good explanation. When the tenon is almost gone it will look a little like your 4th picture, when you used the tailstock for extra support until the last when turning the top of the platter. What I do is remove the nub with hand tools - chisels and carving gouges. I clean up the last little bit in the center with a slightly curved cabinet scraper and sand.

I love turning eastern red cedar. What finish are you planning to use?

I've tried a lot of things - the three I like the most are softened beeswax rubbed on with a cloth, beeswax melted into the wood with a heat gun, and multiple coats of "danish" oil. The first gives a very light color, the second a darker and richer with more red, but the oil finish really brings out the color.

These might show the difference: The first picture has beeswax rubbed into the surface - it we use it in the house and it's held up well and still looks the same after about 5 years. The second picture is a bowl with beeswax melted into the wood. The third pictures shows the color I get with "danish" oil, multiple coats: apply, wipe off after about 20 minutes, let dry overnight, then repeat maybe 8-10 times. The color in the 2nd and 3rd is richer but the surface on the 3rd is much glossier (you can see the gloss in your hand but not in the photo due to the lighting.) The beeswax gives a softer, non-glossy look.

bottom2_IMG_4687.jpg cedar_bowl_figured.jpg penta_platter_cedar_IMG_7434.jpg

I made all three of these with wood from the same tree.

JKJ

[Jim Outman]

Thanks for all your replies. Lots of good ideas. Looks like the jam chuck idea is what I need to try on this one. Kind of what I was thinking using the faceplate with plywood and a protective sheet that I just got at Dollar General for $2. Turn the plywood to soften the edge and make it centered. Then take most of the tenon off and finish it off with my random orbit sander.

I've been going back and forth on tenon vs. mortise On this a mortise might have been the way to go as the bottom is indented and I can't get my pull saw or anything in there to cut it off without risking damage to it.

I've got several slabs of this cedar so this was a test piece to see what I could do.

Been looking around for beeswax to try it. Have to break down and order it online. I have used TruOil, and Gunstock Wax on several guitars I've built, as well as an old can of Behr Tung Oil which is a varnish and oil mix. Got some Danish Oil which is nice too, gives a more natural finish. I've been getting the stuff for O B Shine Juice to try that as well. But I think that's more of a friction polish and when I remove the tenon that might not work.

[John K Jordan]

Jim,

You can often get beeswax from local beekeepers. If you don't know any there are beekeeping clubs all over and lots of the farmers co-ops and markets carry local honey and can put you in touch with the beekeeper. Anyone who gets honey from their hives will have "cappings" wax every year which is the best. If you get up this way stop and visit and I'll give you some to play with.

It depends on the shape and how thick I keep the bottom but I generally use a recess in the bottom of most pieces about that size, a little smaller, and a lot larger. If you like the bottoms thin it might not be best but I prefer a little more weight in the bottom for the balance.

Years ago I started using recesses and decorating the bottom such that I just leave the recess in the piece. Some woodturners think this is horrible but I don't care - when I ask why they say "it's just not done!) But recipients love them (they keep trying to buy them but I only give them away) and even some woodturners who criticized loudly at first are starting to use the same technique. For example, here are some (posted before so you may have seen them):

penta_maple_ellis_c_IMG_5435.jpg

Some bottoms. As usual, I mount by the top and turn the bottom/outside completely, sand, and sometimes even apply finish before I reverse, mount in the recess, and turn the top.

bottom_IMG_4687.jpg IMG_7426.jpg IMG_7435.jpg

On the last one the recess is just the inside of the three triangular sections (this is a 20" platter, base turned with Frank Penta's multi-axis method).

bottom_IMG_4749.jpg bottom_PC012804_e.jpg

This method saves a lot of time and the flat just inside the recess makes a kind of shadowbox for great place to write things.

Another way for holding is to flatten the bottom and glue on a waste block with a piece of brown paper bag between the block and the bottom. Turn a tenon in the waste block to fit the chuck. This can usually be removed with a sharp smack on the side but a better way is to jam the piece as mentioned and turn away most of the glue block before knocking the small piece off. Some people use CA glue to hold the waste block but I haven't tried that. A friend of mine turned large, heavy bowls by holding the bottom on a faceplate with double-sided woodturners tape. That stuff really holds well, requiring a bit of a trick to get it to release!

JKJ

Thanks for all your replies. Lots of good ideas. Looks like the jam chuck idea is what I need to try on this one. Kind of what I was thinking using the faceplate with plywood and a protective sheet that I just got at Dollar General for $2. Turn the plywood to soften the edge and make it centered. Then take most of the tenon off and finish it off with my random orbit sander.

I've been going back and forth on tenon vs. mortise On this a mortise might have been the way to go as the bottom is indented and I can't get my pull saw or anything in there to cut it off without risking damage to it.

I've got several slabs of this cedar so this was a test piece to see what I could do.

Been looking around for beeswax to try it. Have to break down and order it online. I have used TruOil, and Gunstock Wax on several guitars I've built, as well as an old can of Behr Tung Oil which is a varnish and oil mix. Got some Danish Oil which is nice too, gives a more natural finish. I've been getting the stuff for O B Shine Juice to try that as well. But I think that's more of a friction polish and when I remove the tenon that might not work.

[Jim Outman]

Got er done. Made a mount with plywood on my faceplate and used non slip padding, Still had the center spot from the live center and off to the races. Turned it down, sanded it to 220 grit and then the sanding pad which is about wore out to get some shine. took a sharp chisel and took off the rest of it. Sanded it down. Finished it with 3 coats of Danish oil then Birchwood Casey Gun Wax. Thanks for all your suggestions. Feel like I picked up some new tricks.

I find if I used a sanding pad with sandpaper I can really hold and press the sandpaper down and get better results.

[Wes Henson]

I use the same method, but instead of jam chucking I cover the "chuck" and the inside of the bowl in blue painters tape. Then I use hot glue to hold the bowl onto the "chuck" An adapter to mount your chuck in the tail stock helps a lot. It doesn't take a lot of glue. Too much and you'll have trouble getting it apart. The blue tape sticks well to the wood, but will not raise the grain.
I wait for it to set and then turn like you did, 95% completion with the tail stock engaged. I get that all done and then carefully turn off the tenon.
I've never launched one. If the glue is coming lose you will see it as you remove the tail stock. I'll stop and check the security of the mount with the lathe off after removing the tailstock.
The glue hold pretty well, it takes a prying motion to get it apart. I would not try this method with a thin bowl as you may break it trying to get the glue apart.

-Wes

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Nice platter Jim, and more experience under your belt, on to the next challenge, have fun and take care

[John K Jordan]

Got er done. Made a mount with plywood on my faceplate and used non slip padding, Still had the center spot from the live center and off to the races. Turned it down, sanded it to 220 grit and then the sanding pad which is about wore out to get some shine. took a sharp chisel and took off the rest of it. Sanded it down. Finished it with 3 coats of Danish oil then Birchwood Casey Gun Wax. Thanks for all your suggestions. Feel like I picked up some new tricks.

I find if I used a sanding pad with sandpaper I can really hold and press the sandpaper down and get better results.

Jim,

Nice result! The white sapwood is eye-catching.

I really like cedar for turning. When I get logs big enough I like to saw 2" and 2.5" slabs. My stock is getting a low - time to find another tree! I've had a couple that gave me pieces almost 20 inches wide.

cedar_P9064287es.jpg cedar_P9054283es.jpg

I often cut turning squares from 3x3 up to 6x6 and dry them. Sometimes I get lucky and find varigated figure like this:

cedar_P9064289esc.jpg

I have some of the TruOil wax and after seeing your photos I think I'll finally try it!

Another finish I've tried is spray lacquer. This piece has 6 thin coats of rattle-can Deft lacquer, flattened with 1200 grit sandpaper between coats and rubbed down gently with 0000 Liberon steel wool. I prefer the soft sheen look on wood rather than a mirror gloss.

cedar_vessel.jpg

One warning about sanding cedar (based on my experience!). On my first bowl from cedar, turned maybe my 3rd or 4th bowl, I followed some advice to use a piece of scotchbrite as a pad between my fingers and the sandpaper. The guy said it would keep the fingers from getting too hot when sanding the spinning piece. This turned out to be a bad idea on that bowl! I don't know if it was just that particular piece of wood or me pressing too hard or what, but the heat from the sanding made a bunch of tiny heat checks on the inside of the bowl. Ack! That was the day I started using hand scrapers instead of sandpaper to remove tool marks. I found a curved cabinet scraper in my drawer that I'd never used and cut the end off with a Dremel, and used it to remove the heat checks and smooth the inside of the bowl. This was with the lathe spinning slowly. Worked like a charm. I've been using hand scrapers since then to the point I haven't power sanded with rotating disks on a drill for years - the scrapers do a much better job. This is the first one and the bowl in question from almost 20 years ago, finished with beeswax:

scraper_PB054025_s.jpg cedar_bowl.jpg

These are just a few of the scrapers I use the most these days, almost always now with the piece off the lathe. I shape many of them from ordinary cabinet scrapers using a 1" belt sander, sharpen on a CBN wheel on a bench grinder, then hone and burnish a burr. The two at the left are fantastic Stew-Mac scrapers made from 1/8" tool steel.

scrapers_favorite_IMG_7870.jpg _scrapers_IMG_7818.jpg

These can quickly get rid of any turning defects such as rings or center high/low spots as well as some tearout and of course, all tool marks. Excellent for making the inside center of a platter perfectly flat. On cedar I can typically follow the scraping by hand sanding with 400 grit paper and sometimes with just 600.

Sorry for the photo overload - I'm addicted to pictures. Please post photos of your next pieces!

JKJ