pull vs push for dovetails

[Bill Carey]

I've been making my dovetails for the last year with a pull saw and while they have gotten better, they are not what I would call ok. The walls are not as crisp as I would like, and there are occasions when the pull saw would bind on the return stroke. And I've had a hard time training myself to cut at 90 degrees with it. Then last week while I was frustrating myself with poor quality DT's, I realized that the reason - perhaps - that the pull saw would bind on the return stroke was simply my muscle memory. When I started as a carpenter nearly 50 years ago, I thought I was really hot shit because I had a Stanley dual post miter box. Can't remember the model - maybe a 360 - but it had the 6" back saw (which I still have somewhere) and I used that thing every day all day for years. Thinking about it I realized what an enormous amount of muscle training that gave me in cutting plumb. So I bought a Veritas DT saw and what a difference. It was like old home week. I put a board haphazardly in the vise, maybe at 20 degrees, and made a plumb cut. And I mean plumb. Put a small level on it and it was perfect. First cut. Pure muscle memory. Can't wait to cut some DT's with it.

But it got me wondering how many of you use a pull stroke saw, and how many use a push stroke saw.

[Andrew Seemann]

Push saw. Never liked pull stoke saws other than a coping saw. I know other folks love them, but they just have never done it for me.

[George Yetka]

Have you tried using a dovetail saw guide? I just ordered the katz moses one and am excited to try it.

I have both pull and a Veritas push. I made many attempts with the push saw and never was able to make crisp cuts. but first shot out with a pull saw got me a nice crisp line. I also try and leave myself a little bit to clean with the chisel.

[Prashun Patel]

What kind of pull saw are you using. I think it's harder to pull a ryoba straight than a dozuki. I think a dozuki does a great job - especially for smaller work. It is also great for cutting tails because you can have the piece flat on the bench and cut straight up and down. Yes, you are kneeling or sitting or squatting, but the piece is at eye height.

For me, in general I get better results with a Western saw than a ryoba - I suspect - because the pull saws are subject to twisting in the cut if the elbow is not brought back perfectly straight. This causes binding, or a non-vertical cut.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Push. Learned woodworking from my dad (a master woodworker) and refined it on my own, all with western saws and American chisels and planes. Never understood the allure of Japanese hand tools.

[Bill Carey]

What kind of pull saw are you using. I think it's harder to pull a ryoba straight than a dozuki. I think a dozuki does a great job - especially for smaller work. It is also great for cutting tails because you can have the piece flat on the bench and cut straight up and down. Yes, you are kneeling or sitting or squatting, but the piece is at eye height.

For me, in general I get better results with a Western saw than a ryoba - I suspect - because the pull saws are subject to twisting in the cut if the elbow is not brought back perfectly straight. This causes binding, or a non-vertical cut.

Yes, a dozuki. just never got the hang of it. It's what I mean by the muscle memory. 1,000's of hours pushing a saw in the miter box. Always plumb.

[Jim Koepke]

After a lot of time using both, the western push saw tends to work better for me.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

I started with a dozuki making dovetails because the dozuki was the least expensive saw for the job. Didn't have any problems cutting dovetails but it's a bit slow because of the finer teeth.

I eventually switched to a western dovetail saw. My favorite is the Lie Nielsen but I also have a couple of Lee Valley dovetail saws.

Mike

[Rob Luter]

I tried a Dozuki. It's not my thing. I prefer a conventional Western Dovetail Saw.

[Tom M King]

I've been pushing for too long to start pulling now.

[Derek Cohen]

I predominately use Western push saws for dovetails and tenons. However, Eastern pull saws are wonderful for fine joinery cuts. A rip Nakaya dozuki cuts very fast and leaves a superb finish, but can bite the inexperienced. A Z-saw dozuki is more forgiving - everyone should have one for sawing thin boards.

Pulling a saw with a straight handle is as natural as pushing a saw with a pistol grip. What is not natural for me is pushing a straight handle, such as a gent saw. I think that we intuitively want to push with the heel of a hand and pull with fingers. Neither suit a gent saw. I have given them away. Having said this, I have one that I found the other day (packed away) and used it. It cuts well, and I had no difficulty keeping it on the line, but it was fatiguing as it required a conscious effort. With both Western pistol grips or the Eastern straight handle, a light grip allows the saw to do the work, and a light grip also is relaxing. Both add up to control and accuracy. The Gramercy saws especially encourage a light hand. That is not to say that others do not, but these saws are built lighter with thinner saw plates.

Learn to saw by sawing to two intersecting lines, and not sawing on the vertical. Sawing dovetails is done at an angle. I see some turning a board to get the cut vertical. I recommend against doing this. “Muscle memory” for me is all about controlling tho saw, and not about sawing vertically. Accuracy in sawing is about sawing to a line. All woodworking is about working to a line.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

I think a properly tuned Ryoba is the ultimate ripping tool.

It works best ABOVE horizontal.

I suspect the problem most of us galoots have with finer Japanese saws is that they're built for use in a low sitting position and we can't easily adjust our stance.

I think dovetails are less prevalent in Japanese joinery, and the Dozuki may be less than ideal for the task, particularly in harder species.

[Doug Dawson]

I predominately use Western push saws for dovetails and tenons. However, Eastern pull saws are wonderful for fine joinery cuts.

I used to use the dozukis for dovetails, but I no longer do that. The dovetail is a very primitive joint, and I find that I can get a better result by using the speed of a push saw and winging the fit. It looks less calculated.

When it comes to more complex fittings, OTOH, I appreciate the precision that my Japanese saws allow for.

[Doug Dawson]

I suspect the problem most of us galoots have with finer Japanese saws is that they're built for use in a low sitting position and we can't easily adjust our stance.

Au contraire, the problem the gaijin has is a failure to appreciate the rotation of the work before him, and work with it. :^)

[Jason Kamery]

I started with using a Dozukis Z saw, mainly because it was cheap. It was/is a fine saw. Eventually I decided that I just wanted to invest in a nicer saw and decided to go the push saw route, mainly since my old Disston Panel saws were all push and I used them pretty frequently to break down wood, figured I might as well convert everything to push.