Sharpening a saw

[Pete Taran]

Warren,

I appreciate your passion, but it is basely solely on your opinion. I've been filing saws since 1991, and have been teaching people to file since 1996 through my website. I also have an opinion. That does not make yours wrong and mine right. When situations like these arise, it's always useful to see what the opinions of others were, in the times in which handsaws were important and used daily to see what they might say.

To wit:

In 1864 HW Holly wrote a book called, The Art of Saw Filing, a copy which I hold as part of my collection. In it, he writes:

Holly.jpg

In 1909 Fred T Hodgson wrote in his excellent book, "Hand Saws: Their Use, Care and Abuse":

Hodgson.jpg

Finally, in 1882 Robert Grimshaw wrote a book called: Saw Filing". In it he writes:

Grimshaw.jpg

You will note in all cases the authors speak to the relative importance of jointing before filing. I see no call outs about it being optional, or should only be done every 2, 3 or 4th time filing. As stated before, jointing a saw has absolutely no downside if done properly and judiciously, and has great upside.

Let's then turn to this notion of counting strokes and how to file. As before, and in the same order, Holly writes:

Holly2.jpg

Note that part about stopping as soon as the saw comes to a point. No mention of stroke counting.

Hodgson writes:

Hodgson2.jpg

Note the part about observing when the saw tooth comes to a point and filing further will destroy a half hours work. No mention of stroke counting.

Finally, Grimshaw writes:

Grimshaw2.jpg

Note the part about stopping filing even if the tooth is not properly shaped. Again, no mention of stroke counting.

Anyone can read these period texts and come to their own conclusion. Again, these are other men's opinions, now dead, but they seem to be in close alignment. Always joint your saw and stop filing when the tooth comes to a point. You are free to believe and do as you choose, but do so armed with knowledge, not a blind statement.

Happy Filing!

Pete

[Tom M King]

I absolutely agree about stopping filing where you need to. That's why you look at every tooth before, and as you are filing. To do otherwise would be foolish. Even though I take single strokes, most of the time, not only will they vary in pressure, but often in length too.

I also agree that there is not an absolute way that is right, or wrong as far as whether to joint, or not to joint. Of all the old guys I knew that used a hand saw every day, I never saw one that jointed every time, or even any more often than I do, or probably Warren does.

Also, I do believe it's a good idea to follow the texts exactly when one is starting out, but once one not only understands, but has a feel for the job, they are free to do as they see fit. The goal is to have a sharp saw, that is good for the job, but when income depends on producing work, there is often an efficient way that might not exactly follow how someone wrote down how to do it.

That siding in the picture would not have fitted any better if the saw that did the cutting had been jointed every time, nor would it have done the job any faster.

I see blind statements supporting both jointing every time, and not to joint every time. Neither blind statement is absolutely correct every time, and the other always completely wrong.

[Pete Taran]

Tom,

I don't disagree with anything you wrote. But considering the OP is a first time filer, it's hard to argue the merits of jointing until that skill is learned. Presumably, in the texts above, they were also aimed at first time filers, and the recommendation is remarkably consistent.

Regards,

Pete

[Warren Mickley]

Pete, I think it is understandable that we should have differing ideas on these matters. As a hand tool woodworker, I actually use hand saws in my work. Most of my sharpening has been on the same half dozen saws I have been using for over four decades. So I have the advantage of feedback from saws that I have sharpened repeatedly.

I think you may have a very different background. I suspect a lot of the saws you have filed were not ones that you have previously filed many times and used yourself. I don't think the authors you quote are hand tool craftsmen either. Two of them seem to be architects and the other an engineer. And the authors seem to assume that the reader is learning to sharpen on a saw that is not in good shape, that they need to do remedial work. Which is not the case for Jason.

[James Pallas]

I am very sure that someone with experience could do a credible job of sharpening a saw without jointing first, especially if the saw is not very dull. The tricky part is not having an established base line for tooth height that can be referenced. If the middle section of the saw is worn, which is usually the case, than counting strokes would still leave the outer teeth longer than the worn teeth in the middle. Jointing would give you wider flats on the outside teeth and narrower flats on the worn inside teeth. File to the point not to the count. The outside teeth will take more filing.
Jim

[Kevin Hampshire]

Okay, let me preface this by saying that I have not put files to a single tooth yet and I have no skin towards either method, but I do have six or seven old saws that will soon fall victim to my poor eyesight, shakey hands, worn out triangular files and Rube Goldberg methods.





I am curious how jointing by a beginner like myself (Warren’s early post) will make the sharpening worse?



Also, we are talking about hand tool woodworking. Probably all of us establish a reference face while planing. We then gauge off that reference face. Isn’t jointing teeth very similar to jointing the reference face of a board?

[Pete Taran]

Kevin,

Yes exactly, and it will not make it worse, only improve your chances of getting it right for the reasons you stated.

Regards,

Pete

[Kevin Hampshire]

Pete, I kind of assumed that was your thought.

For the record, (and I am not trying to get anyone’s knickers knotted up) before reading this thread, I intended to use BOTH methods on different saws.


I have a crosscut that’s cutting okay and really isn’t that dull. I wasn’t going to joint that one. Just freshen the face of the teeth to see if the cut was any better or just worse.

Another saw is clearly dull in the middle (as in the teeth are so round and smooth that they could only “tickle” the wood) and to my eye, looked like an obvious candidate for jointing.


Don’t expect me to update anyone with my progress.

[Tom M King]

I think you'll do fine. The hardest part seems to be getting started the first time.

[Warren Mickley]

James Pallas suggested that if one filed an equal number of strokes on each tooth, then the teeth at each end would grow longer. In 45 years I have not noticed this to be the case. I don't think James actually noticed this either.

Kevin Hampshire asked why jointing a saw that retained its factory filing might make it worse. Jointing causes one to do more filing, and the more one files the worse it gets. It might be a stretch, but some are claiming that filing is so irregular that they need to joint again before every filing. Besides the length of each tooth, the angles and gullets can get distorted the more one files.

[James Pallas]

James Pallas suggested that if one filed an equal number of strokes on each tooth, then the teeth at each end would grow longer. In 45 years I have not noticed this to be the case. I don't think James actually noticed this either.

Kevin Hampshire asked why jointing a saw that retained its factory filing might make it worse. Jointing causes one to do more filing, and the more one files the worse it gets. It might be a stretch, but some are claiming that filing is so irregular that they need to joint again before every filing. Besides the length of each tooth, the angles and gullets can get distorted the more one files.

Here is where it comes from.. When I first started in the wood business a youngster in the 60s. We hand sharpened rough saws in the field clamped to a saw horse with a 2x on one side. No jointing, just a tri-corner file. Straight across for rip guessed angle of 20 degrees or so for cross cuts or whatever the file matched. Look down the blade for set and tap it with a claw of your hammer. They all got concave after a while. They did cut fast but not pretty. Latter when I learned about jointing it was a maracle come true. I had never retoothed a saw until a few years ago. Learned a good bit from Ron Bontz right here on the creek at that time. Joint however lightly file to the point. I respect the way you do it Warren and I did say it was possible for the experienced. I would say that most filers joint and some count strokes. To me it would be like counting strokes to cut dovetails instead of cutting to the baseline. Different strokes as is said.
Jim

We sharpened skilsaw blades the same, steel ones that us. Clamp the saw upside down on a horse, file the outside right on the saw, unplugged of course. We usually had a stack about a foot high from the sharp shed but sometimes ran short.

[Stewie Simpson]

James Pallas suggested that if one filed an equal number of strokes on each tooth, then the teeth at each end would grow longer. In 45 years I have not noticed this to be the case. I don't think James actually noticed this either.

Kevin Hampshire asked why jointing a saw that retained its factory filing might make it worse. Jointing causes one to do more filing, and the more one files the worse it gets. It might be a stretch, but some are claiming that filing is so irregular that they need to joint again before every filing. Besides the length of each tooth, the angles and gullets can get distorted the more one files.

Warren; the basis upon your argument serves you no favor.

regards Stewie.

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks James. I think there is a big difference between jointing only when it is helpful and never jointing at all.

[Derek Cohen]

I touched up a couple of dovetail saws last weekend. I emphasise "touched up". This is different from re-filing the teeth, changing their size or the angle of their rake. It was evident that the saws could cut more aggressively, that is, the teeth were dulling. I am about to begin a new build, and all the tools I use are tuned up beforehand.

Looking at the tips of the teeth it was possible to see a little light reflecting. I was using magnifiers to see this. This pointed to a very fine amount of wear.

I did not joint the teeth - they did not appear to need it. The teeth were coplanar still. So all I did was maintain the same rake angle and take one stroke across the face of each tooth. That was enough to remove all the reflected light. It may need to be jointed next sharpening. For now it is cutting very sweetly.

I suspect that Warren and Pete are referring to two different processes. Warren appears to be referring to the process for maintaining a reasonably sharp (but dulling) set of teeth, while Pete is referring to the process to follow when filing a new plate, or resharpening a noticeably dull set of teeth. They are both relevant process that I use.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

James Pallas suggested that if one filed an equal number of strokes on each tooth, then the teeth at each end would grow longer. In 45 years I have not noticed this to be the case. I don't think James actually noticed this either.

Kevin Hampshire asked why jointing a saw that retained its factory filing might make it worse. Jointing causes one to do more filing, and the more one files the worse it gets. It might be a stretch, but some are claiming that filing is so irregular that they need to joint again before every filing. Besides the length of each tooth, the angles and gullets can get distorted the more one files.

I agree with this.

If filing retains the same rake and distance between teeth, then the tooth size will not alter.

Further, the more (deeper) jointing is done, the more the gullet depth will need to be restored.

Regards from Perth

Derek