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Thread: Hollow grinding japanese chisels

  1. #31
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    I think Doug Nailed it. To show how preposterous the notion that any chisel is too fragile to tolerate a hollow grind from a 10" wheel, check out the drawing I just made in Aspire. 10" diameter wheel with a 25 degree chisel placed so the heel and cutting edge of the chisel just touch the wheel. The measured distance of the crescent shape which represents the hollow grind? .009"! If a chisel is so fragile that it can't handle a .009" divot, it best be relegated to opening paint cans and scraping dandelions from between the sidewalk cracks.

    I don't own any Japanese Chisels, but as fate would have it, I am talking to Stan the Man Covington, now in permanent SMC exile, about getting some. I only intend to use my Tormek for sharpening them. When all this comes to pass, I will report back on the deleterious effects of the .009" hollow grind on their ability to stay in one piece through normal use.

    wheel.jpg

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    Presumably one is missing the point when hollow grinding a tool that has traditionally been flat ground. If you want to use Western methods of tool preparation, then buy Western tools in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Edwin; I also don't own any Japanese Chisels, but that doesn't impede my ability to read advise that warns against the use of hollow grinds on Japanese Chisels.

    regards Stewie;

    https://www.hidatool.com/image/data/...%20Chisels.pdf
    Stewie,
    I took issue with the second part of his comment which I thought was uncalled for. Read my original post. It's not that I want to use "Western methods of tool preparation". I simply wanted someone to explain to me why a Tormek hollow grind would be ill advised.

    I can understand and appreciate tradition, and tools as art. But at the same time, we all find ourselves fighting the clock some days. The Tormek is fast and safe and I own one, so if I'm under time pressure, I wanted to know why I can't turn to it. I have a set of Shapton water stones and a Japanese polishing stone. Setting aside honoring the blacksmith and tradition for tradition's sake, I have not found a faster way than a hollow bevel to hone an edge and get back to work. This said, I'm not insisting on using it on the Japanese chisels, and this is why I don't need to be admonished that I should have bought western chisels in the first place. For some of us, learning involves asking questions.

    Edwin

  3. #33
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    My first concern is to honor the maker. The person making my chisels has honed his craft for over fifty years, I want to show that I respect that by preparing them in a way befitting the product of his experience to the best of my abilities. These makers are not simply working off tradition, they’re scientific in their approach to creating their end product and they want a flat bevel so I respect that. Who am I to dismiss the care they have taken to ensure I have a professional quality tool?

    Second, it is a weaker edge so why would I chose to use it for a tool which will be stressed? I don’t know what normal use is, but I know well when I’m approaching the extremes as I have taken lesser chisels to failure.

    I’ve shared my experience and expressed my opinion and concerns.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 04-13-2019 at 1:29 AM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    I think Doug Nailed it. To show how preposterous the notion that any chisel is too fragile to tolerate a hollow grind from a 10" wheel, check out the drawing I just made in Aspire. 10" diameter wheel with a 25 degree chisel placed so the heel and cutting edge of the chisel just touch the wheel. The measured distance of the crescent shape which represents the hollow grind? .009"! If a chisel is so fragile that it can't handle a .009" divot, it best be relegated to opening paint cans and scraping dandelions from between the sidewalk cracks.

    I don't own any Japanese Chisels, but as fate would have it, I am talking to Stan the Man Covington, now in permanent SMC exile, about getting some. I only intend to use my Tormek for sharpening them. When all this comes to pass, I will report back on the deleterious effects of the .009" hollow grind on their ability to stay in one piece through normal use.

    wheel.jpg
    I could make a case that the hollow is even less significant that your excellent illustration. Most would come off the Tormek and finish hone on finer stones. This process will create a very small flat bevel at the cutting edge and the heel both. This will change the geometry such that the hollow bevel would become even less significant. Maybe .008 or .007?

    And of course, re-honing the small flat bevel is very fast, and with successive honings, it will become larger and larger until the hollow is gone and the chisel is effectively back to a flat bevel. When I was trained (admittedly not on Japanese chisels), this would be the point where we would go back to the grinder and create a fresh hollow and start the cycle again.

  5. #35
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    This has been an interesting discussion which has very little connection to my way of keeping my chisels sharp.

    It is clearly true about being easier to freehand sharpen a hollow ground blade. Though to do so it requires one to have a grinding wheel to create a hollow grind.

    One of my favorite chisels, a Karpenter 1" socket chisel came to me with a hollow grind. It hasn't required any power grinding since it arrived. After years of use, any remnants of the hollow grinding have been honed away.

    It just seems funny of the contrast between a chisel from the land of hollow grind has a flat bevel and there is a discussion of the merits or sacrilege of a hollow grind on a chisel from the land of flat bevels.

    Sharpening discussions are the political discussions of woodworking.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #36
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    Slightly off on a tangent. I personally don't find a hollow gring "jigs" itself very well. I find it easier to give a slight lift and create a secondary bevel. Unless the edge to be worked is thick and or wide, maintaining a full bevel does not take very long.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Haydon View Post
    Slightly off on a tangent. I personally don't find a hollow gring "jigs" itself very well. I find it easier to give a slight lift and create a secondary bevel. Unless the edge to be worked is thick and or wide, maintaining a full bevel does not take very long.
    In my experience, without using a secondary bevel, maintaining a full flat bevel doesn't take very long.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #38
    Brian, you do great work with wood. But you would have not been successful in slapstick movies. " These pies were made
    for eating, not for throwing in faces to get a laugh", would have quickly branded you as "difficult "

  9. #39
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    Agree, Jim. Not sure I did a good job of explaining it. For 25mm wide chisels and narrower along with bailey irons I do the whole bevel. On wider chisels and traditional western irons I tend to go for a secondary. I do not own or use Japanese chisels so can't comment. I would defer to the traditional approach if using them.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Fulks View Post
    Brian, you do great work with wood. But you would have not been successful in slapstick movies. " These pies were made
    for eating, not for throwing in faces to get a laugh", would have quickly branded you as "difficult "
    Guilty, .
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #41
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    I am admittedly a poor spokesman for the few thousand year old tradition of Japanese tool set up. But do I, or anybody else for that matter, need to be a spokesman for it or simply an observer of it to be convinced there's something to it? That one has yet to personally run across the "there's something to it" part is essentially meaningless is it not? Maybe when some utterly stupendous Japanese master craftsman comes out and says it's all essentially a bunch of hooey, then maybe that would be an answer.

    Food for thought perhaps.

    I went through my "Japanese Period" and did so probably before a lot of you were born. I've owned Japanese chisels. I just honed them on the flat, like they arrived. No big deal. I never gave doing anything else a moment's thought.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 04-13-2019 at 7:35 PM.

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