Couple random questions: jointer restoration, 12" ras blade, Delta 12-14" ts table...

[Jon Singer]

First question:
12" ras blades: Forrest WW1 says 30 deg ATB with 5 deg hook on 10" and smaller. What's up with the 12" WW1? Same hook? Also looking for an inexpensive 12" RAS blade for stuff like quick crosscuts to get stuff down small enough for the trash can, wood pile for fire, etc. Any recommendations for something pretty cheap/disposable for RAS?


Second question:
Recently picked up a 6" Delta jointer. It's model 654, made in 1946. It's not a longbed jointer, it's the shorter one. Does anyone have a reference for the bearing part numbers? (two different bearings) When I spin the cutter head, the drive pulley almost looks eccentric. It's an original pulley and looks fine except it doesn't look perfectly round. Rather than mess with trying to shim and center the pulley on the shaft, are there aftermarket pulleys for jointers? Last question about the jointer --how is best way to remove and re-attach the metal labels so I can clean & paint the jointer?


Third question:
Recently picked up an old Delta 12-14" cabinet saw. The table is in decent shape but it's not perfect. There's no big rust or pitting, just looks like stuff maybe dropped on it or the table fell over so there's a couple dents/marks on it. I can get them out with stones so table will be flat. How much should I worry about a few very small dents/marks?


Thanks.

[Richard Coers]

I thought a negative rake blade is what you wanted for a radial arm saw. Anything sold for a SCMS will work. If you're going to cut firewood, get a blade at Harbor Freight. McMaster Carr is the place for pulleys. Could be a good chance the shaft is damaged if it looks that bad now. Masking tape to cover the labels, but I'd make sure that shaft is good before worrying about paint.

[Jon Singer]

I thought a negative rake blade is what you wanted for a radial arm saw. Anything sold for a SCMS will work. If you're going to cut firewood, get a blade at Harbor Freight. McMaster Carr is the place for pulleys. Could be a good chance the shaft is damaged if it looks that bad now. Masking tape to cover the labels, but I'd make sure that shaft is good before worrying about paint.

Thanks. I didn't want to mask them off, I wanted to remove them so I can media blast the whole surface and then put them back on. I just wasn't sure what they did at the factory to attach them. Maybe I'll set it up on the drill press and hammer in something soft to re-attach.

Hmm... I already have a lot of the jointer taken apart and the bearings are so bad I'm not sure it's worth trying to test runout at this point. I'll just pull the cutter head and measure it another way. Worst case I'll turn the shaft down then visit McMaster for a new pulley.


All I know about tooth rake is all the old school radial arm saw guys have a hard-on for the Forrest WW-1 blades. I had a 10" on my Craftsman and it was great but I guess any SCMS would work too. Negative rake would work too.

[Don Jarvie]

Changing blades on a RAS is a pain so if never in a Forrest Chopmastrr. It’s designed to be used on a RAS. For your second and third questions join OWWM. You can find the manual for the jointer and tons of info on restoring the machines.

[Bill Dufour]

Drive screws are often used to fasten tags. They have to be drilled out or pryed out. I would drill and tap for #4 or #6 screws.
Theoretically they the drive screws can be edm'd out or a nut welded to them and then twisted out.
Bil lD.

[Zach Dorsch]

I’m still new to machine rebuilding, but the my understanding is the bearings will have numbers on them that is industry standard. Match up the numbers with a new set and good to go.

This is thread has great instructions on who to call for bearings:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....-Delta-jointer

[David Kumm]

SKF Explorer or Natchi Quest in standard clearance. A little better precision for still cheap money. Dave

[Marc Jeske]

Re: the 12/14...


"the table fell over so there's a couple dents/marks on it."

Photos please.

Have you checked the table/ extensions assembly for flatness... AND wind twist ?

Marc

[Jon Singer]

Drive screws are often used to fasten tags. They have to be drilled out or pryed out. I would drill and tap for #4 or #6 screws.
Theoretically they the drive screws can be edm'd out or a nut welded to them and then twisted out.
Bil lD.

I'm very confused. Not sure if I'm clueless or maybe did you reply to the wrong thread/post? Do you mean drive screw as in jointer cutter head?

I’m still new to machine rebuilding, but the my understanding is the bearings will have numbers on them that is industry standard. Match up the numbers with a new set and good to go.

Thanks, was just trying to cheat. I have a great bearing shop about 10min from me. Was hoping someone had the bearing numbers so I could order (they would be to me) before I tear it down enough to see the numbers on the bearings. But yes, there are (there should be!!) numbers on the sides of the bearings specifying what they are.

SKF Explorer or Natchi Quest in standard clearance. A little better precision for still cheap money. Dave

Only YouTube video I could find with my exact jointer rebuild the guy said there were different bearings on drive/pulley side vs. other side. If I remember correctly I think he said the pulley side inner race was spaced out vs. other side was not. These things are all 1000 years old and many chefs have been in the kitchen. Just wondering about what the original/oem stuff was.

Re: the 12/14...


"the table fell over so there's a couple dents/marks on it."

Photos please.

I'll get them and post them. Really it looks like someone went to town with a hammer on it. IDK, it was ridden hard and put up wet more than once in its life.

Have you checked the table/ extensions assembly for flatness... AND wind twist ?

Marc

No, I've done nothing. The saw was free so I didn't ask many questions. I showed up with an SUV and a trailer, took everything he gave me and drove away. All I've done is back the trailer into my father in law's garage with saw still strapped to the trailer. He gave me a bunch of extensions that look more like 10" Unisaw than 12-14 size but I haven't taken the time to go through it all.

I've been more concerned about getting the 6" jointer finished. I've been talking to a guy about a surface grinder and only reason why I asked about the 12-14 table was to see if I wanted something bigger than the machine I'm looking at.

How do I want to approach the 12-14 table? With a RAS they say it doesn't matter if the legs (whole saw) is 45 degrees to the ground/earth --as long as the blade is 90 to fence and table it's all good. When I got the 12-14 it was strapped to a pallet. Does it have leveling feet? My gut says I should worry about the table being FLAT then (if needed) shim everything else? I could care less if the box for the on/off buttons isn't level... as long as table is flat, arbor is indexed, fence is square --and I can rinse/repeat then it's good. Am I off base with that?


Thanks.

[Jon Singer]

Drive screws are often used to fasten tags. They have to be drilled out or pryed out. I would drill and tap for #4 or #6 screws.
Theoretically they the drive screws can be edm'd out or a nut welded to them and then twisted out.
Bil lD.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking about the tags and spaced out when I read your comment. I'll go back and edit. It's been a long week, I thought you were talking about the cutter head on the jointer.

Now that I think we are on same/similar page, yes, try to pry out, don't ruin the tag, worst case build a contraption and drill them out in the press? They have rust on them. Can I assume mild steel so just go slow/easy and no big deal or do I have to worry? I can see that the pins don't go through the casting so really wondering what bit to use and when I'll know/feel that I've bottomed out. Just don't want to crank through the thing and turn the jointer into Swiss cheese.

Thanks and sorry for my misunderstanding/confusion.

[Bill Dufour]

A drive screw is fairly hard since it is pounded in like a nail as it bites into the cast iron. A HSS drill may not be hard enough. One trick while pulling is they want to turn CCW. They will rotate about 1-2 turns in a 1/2" or so. If you can locate and drill them from the back they pound out pretty easy.
AKA; screw nails, Drive nails, drive rivets, hammer drive rivets. Look similar to those twisted nails used to build pallets. But hard enough to cut into cast iron with a pilot hole.
Bil lD.

[Marc Jeske]

To add to Bill's post...
IF you have access to the back...


NO drilling needed... Just soak w penetrating oil overnight, then use correct pin punch to drive out.

Easy peasy IF you have rear access.

Marc

[Jeff Heath]

All the information on your jointer is available at VintageMachinery.org, in the Delta section. Delta often had different options and combinations for their bearings, depending on year. The very best way to know for sure is when you take yours apart. The bearing numbers will be on the bearings. You can also measure the shaft and bearing race sizes for a match.

Pulley's don't get shimmed. If yours is bad, you would need to have a machine shop bore it out, install a bushing, and machine that to size, so the pulley stays centered. Otherwise, way too much vibration occurs from a wobble in the pulley. Most Delta pulleys are very common sizes, and you'll be able to find a new replacement fairly easily online, knowing the diameter and bore size.

I remove drive screws using a couple different methods. As mentioned, pushing them out from behind with a pin punch. If you don't have access, you can grab the head with a pair of vise grips and twist out. Worst case scenario, I will use a die grinder ( a dremel will work fine) and a cut-off wheel, and carefully cut a straight slot in the drive screw head, and use a straight screw driver to twist it out. One of these 3 methods will easily work for you.

Nachi or SKF make very good quality replacement bearings. I put SKF in all my restorations.

[Jon Singer]

To add to Bill's post...
IF you have access to the back...

Thanks Marc. I had thought they were drilled through but these are not. This (http://vintagemachinery.org/photoind...l.aspx?id=9509) is the jointer. With the fence off I can see behind where the serial number is attached and there are no holes so extracting from the front is only option. I'll see what I can do. Not sure I want to try to slot the head or wrestle them with vice drips if I'm trying to save the red labels. Maybe I'll surrender and mask them off. My thought was I could pull them then use something soft (aluminum or copper) to replace the tags...

All the information on your jointer is available at VintageMachinery.org, in the Delta section. Delta often had different options and combinations for their bearings, depending on year. The very best way to know for sure is when you take yours apart. The bearing numbers will be on the bearings. You can also measure the shaft and bearing race sizes for a match.

Pulley's don't get shimmed. If yours is bad, you would need to have a machine shop bore it out, install a bushing, and machine that to size, so the pulley stays centered. Otherwise, way too much vibration occurs from a wobble in the pulley. Most Delta pulleys are very common sizes, and you'll be able to find a new replacement fairly easily online, knowing the diameter and bore size.

I remove drive screws using a couple different methods. As mentioned, pushing them out from behind with a pin punch. If you don't have access, you can grab the head with a pair of vise grips and twist out. Worst case scenario, I will use a die grinder ( a dremel will work fine) and a cut-off wheel, and carefully cut a straight slot in the drive screw head, and use a straight screw driver to twist it out. One of these 3 methods will easily work for you.

Nachi or SKF make very good quality replacement bearings. I put SKF in all my restorations.

Thanks. I like SKF or sometimes FAG. Haven't ever used Nachi but I have a bunch of German cars so maybe that's why

Now is one of those times when I wish I owned the McMaster big yellow book. After closer inspection I think I'm going to put the jointer on hold. I've got a 4-1/2 foot Southbend 9A in pieces/boxes that should probably take priority. The pulley side of the jointer's cutter head is pretty buggered up. Looks like someone tried to re-key it at some point, with round stock. If I can throw the jointer cutter head in a lathe chuck I'll be able to center it and sort it out from there. I don't have a milling machine but a 4" Jacob cross slide table for the drill press should be fine for a key slot. I'm "restoring" the jointer but this is for me to use (almost daily). If Delta pulleys are pretty standard sizes I'll look up the pulley OD then try to find something with a bit smaller ID and turn the shaft down to that. Maybe I'll get lucky and find something metric that's close. Metric would be fun on that jointer --my kids can curse me someday

[Tom M King]

I've used the WW1 on a RAS since the 1980's, and it works great. I'd just keep a cheap Irwin, or something like that for questionable wood. It's easy to change the blade by using a real 6 point box end of a combination wrench on the nut, and using the wrench slam on a block of wood method to loosen-same as a bench grinder. If it's one of the cheap RAS's, with a flexible arm, nothing you put on it will keep it from jambing.

Aircraft rivets work great for tags, but you need a pneumatic rivet gun, and bucking bar that will fit behind the surface that the tag is on. I don't know anything else that will look like the original ones.