Need help detrmining bearing sizes to reload grandpa's bit brace

[Kurtis Johnson]

I'm sorry to hear your bearing houses there aren't oriented to individual folks. We live in an area with agriculture history and many active agricultural operations; so the local bearing house is used to individuals walking with with an individual problem. They'll put $25 of work into figuring out what $2 item to sell you; and they have a sweet shop dog to boot!

Unfortunately, around these parts, our ag tends to be big ag these days. Things are a lot different than when I was a kid. But to be fair, I haven't tried anyone local yet.

When installing loose bearings, by the way, never fill the entire race. You need to leave a little space. Customary space is one bearing's worth of gap. Otherwise, the bearings can't roll easily, and they'll seize up.

Thanks. It's good to be reminded of that.

[Kurtis Johnson]

Do you have access to an inner mic?
I never feel like I a get an exact size in bores with calipers.
I fortunate to have a local bearing distribution center. They can find you just about anything.

Oh goodie, another tool to pursue!

[Kurtis Johnson]

Some refurb progress has been made....
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Just working on the chuck and ratchet for now....

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First, degreaser

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Next, Evaporust. My first foray with it. I’ve always used naval jelly in the past.

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Not too shabby. Took 31 1/8” ball bearings. [EDIT: I found a replacement screw for the bearing hole.] I’ll file down for a better fit and use some lok-tite.

Having a problem and and could use advice. The ratchet is frozen. Specifically, the selector. Pawls are fine. I’ve hit it with a number of creeping oil’s and used a Chanel lock pliers with leather with no luck. I got it smokin hot with a heat gun with no luck. Any suggestions?

[Jim Koepke]

One of my braces have a stuck/broken ratchet mechanism. It may be easier to just leave it and use a different brace if you are in a situation that would need a ratchet.

jtk

[Kurtis Johnson]

One of my braces have a stuck/broken ratchet mechanism. It may be easier to just leave it and use a different brace if you are in a situation that would need a ratchet.

jtk

I have six or seven super nice bit braces, and a few of those I can and do use, it's just that this one has a great deal of sentimental value and I don't want to give up on it too soon. Then there's the fact it's so unique and robust that it would be a shame for it to not be fully functional again. Hopefully it's not a lost cause and someone will have suggestions.

BTW, I was able to find the bearings from a bike shop like you suggested. Thanks again for the idea!

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I would take it apart. Speaking again from my work on Lions (I do not have a Stanley of that style) they often have junk in there jamming up the mechanism. Be warned, getting it back together is a pretty finicky job. Take pictures so you remember what goes where.

Having a problem and and could use advice. The ratchet is frozen. Specifically, the selector. Pawls are fine. I’ve hit it with a number of creeping oil’s and used a Chanel lock pliers with leather with no luck. I got it smokin hot with a heat gun with no luck. Any suggestions?

[Kurtis Johnson]

I would take it apart. Speaking again from my work on Lions (I do not have a Stanley of that style) they often have junk in there jamming up the mechanism. Be warned, getting it back together is a pretty finicky job. Take pictures so you remember what goes where.

Yeah, I've had it apart, all but the selector, of course, because frozen, and the pawls. It's all very simple design, very few parts really.

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Simple, this is just about all there is

Removing the pawls would Require driving out the two pins. I haven't done so yet because 1) they weren't coming out with light hammer blows, 2) I don't have an arbor press to reinstall them if one would be needed, and 3) I wasn't sure it would help unstick the selector. Do you think removing the pawls might help?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

They are pretty simple, but one of mine that would not work had an ancient wood chip inside. How it got there I don’t have any idea, but it worked its way in somehow. There is also a spring, which can wear and slip out of where it is supposed to be and that can make them jam. Old grease can harden over the years and jam things up. If it is old grease or rust, soaking may help, but if it is a broken spring or some kind of debris, the only way to correct any of that is to take them apart.

On mine, the I think the pin could only be driven out from one side. It has been several years since my brace buying/fixing spree though, so my memory could be off.

Have you tried searching to see if you can find a parts diagram or an exploded diagram of that model? The way you put the bearings in, it is clearly not any version of the Lions that I own (but I am not a collector or an expert, just a guy who owns half a dozen).

Somebody mentioned a Stanley model number. If you do a search for that you may find a diagram or a youtube video. When I did mine there were a couple of good articles on the fine tools website that helped a lot, but I think all of that is gone now.

I could take one of mine apart and take photos for you, but with it not being the same model I am not sure how much that would help you.

Yeah, I've had it apart, all but the selector, of course, because frozen, and the pawls. It's all very simple design, very few parts really.
...

Removing the pawls would Require driving out the two pins. I haven't done so yet because 1) they weren't coming out with light hammer blows, 2) I don't have an arbor press to reinstall them if one would be needed, and 3) I wasn't sure it would help unstick the selector. Do you think removing the pawls might help?

[Kurtis Johnson]

Hi Kurtis,
I'll be very interested if you can make a positive ID of that brace. I went up to the shed for a look at mine and have not got one EXACTLY like yours, and as you said it shares similarities with MF, Stanley and PEXTO. It seems strange that if it is by one of these three that it is not branded with their name.

It's looking more and more like a PS&W. As fate would have it, I just picked up a bit brace with the same boxed ratchet locally off Craig's List. It's an extremely rare pre-Sampson Peck, Stow & Wilcox with with the same exact boxed ratchet. It's re-branded PAGOMA, derived from Paxton & Gallagher Co. of Omaha: (PA)xton & (G)allagher Co. of (OMA)ha. It's a No. 8014, but just not marked as such.

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The PS&W

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The boxed ratchet of the PS&W. Versus...

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The boxed ratchet of grandpa's. The only difference being a mod, a machined recess for a spindle nut.

For posterity, I'll probably start another thread for the Pagoma. But I wanted to mention it here because I finally identified the ratchet on grandpa's as PS&W.

[Jim Koepke]

BTW, I was able to find the bearings from a bike shop like you suggested. Thanks again for the idea!

You are welcome, my years of being a bicycle mechanic are still useful.

jtk

[Kurtis Johnson]

Thanks Nicholas. Good stuff. If the selector has a spring I suppose it could have slipped and jammed. I doubt it has one, but I could be wrong. I imagine it's the most rudimentary of cam action instead. Both pawls work fine, therefore the springs for those are free. When I pull on the pawls to disengage them, the spindle turns and clicks both directions. Debris could certainly have jammed the selector.

I don't feel any more soaking with help. I've had it sitting with top creeping oils for years now to no effect. I had it soaking in degreaser and then Evaporust for a day. No joy.

As for a diagram, we have no positive ID on the bit brace itself. But I've made progress as I've identified the boxed ratchet as the same as on a PS&W No. 8014, also mentioned above.

I have no ID, name, or diagram for that ratchet as of yet. Still searching.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Spent some time looking last night, and either my search skills are weak, or there is not a lot out there. If you have a spare, you can experiment with that one, and wait to take grandpa’s apart until you have identified the potential potholes.

Syndas Sloot has some good information about the Sampson braces on his website, but I did not see anything that would be helpful. You might find it of interest though.

[Jim Koepke]

Another source (rabbit hole) for information on braces is > https://www.georgesbasement.com

Many hours of my time have been spent there trying to absorb what was presented.

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I took one of mine apart today. The ratchet has two pins, and looks very similar to the one you have. The pins drove out from back to front. It took quite a bit to get them to move, even though this one has been all the way apart, derusted, and liberally oiled.

The mechanism is simple. The pawls pivot on the pins. There is a spring between them, and the collar turns to lock one pawl or the other (or both) to ratchet left, right, or not ratchet at all. The collars on mine are all fairly loose. I have a hard time imagining rust alone could seize it up.

Getting it back together is not easy. You have to get one pawl in place, and drive its pin in. Then somehow get the spring in place and hold it there while you get the other pawl in place. Then you need to rotate the chuck until the second pawl is properly aligned, and then you can get the second pin in. It is possible. Just needs lots of patience.

Thanks Nicholas. Good stuff. If the selector has a spring I suppose it could have slipped and jammed. I doubt it has one, but I could be wrong. I imagine it's the most rudimentary of cam action instead. Both pawls work fine, therefore the springs for those are free. When I pull on the pawls to disengage them, the spindle turns and clicks both directions. Debris could certainly have jammed the selector.

I don't feel any more soaking with help. I've had it sitting with top creeping oils for years now to no effect. I had it soaking in degreaser and then Evaporust for a day. No joy.

As for a diagram, we have no positive ID on the bit brace itself. But I've made progress as I've identified the boxed ratchet as the same as on a PS&W No. 8014, also mentioned above.

I have no ID, name, or diagram for that ratchet as of yet. Still searching.

[Geoff Emms]

Hi Kurtis,
As previously mentioned I don't have one like yours but I do have this branded: Stanley No 813-12IN.-Y which has some similarities to yours and which you referred to in your first post. The jaws in my photo, similar to yours, are Austin Stowell's Oct' 1932 Pat' No. 1,880,521 which in turn are an improvement on that of Harry Parker 1,270,754 of June 25 1918. My 813 chuck has the retention strip to retain the balls.
I wonder if the chuck locating nut on the back of your brace could be a replacement? My photo shows the attachment patented by Harris Cook on June 20 1933, No. 1,951,245. It has two slots machined across the end of the threaded shank to carry the locating pin which yours doesn't, which leaves me scratching my head. On the other hand the machined area on the housing where the nut seats is very similar.

The efforts you have made to loosen the ratchet selector are on the right track and the same as I would do . If you can grip it tight enough with leather padding without crushing or distorting it you would expect to be able to gradually get some movement into it. I've used a vise and a pipe vise for this same problem. Clamp it in the vise with the leather and try to move it, if it slips tighten the vise slightly and try again. If you get a slight amount of movement then try going back the other direction, each time it slips tighten the vise fractionally.

I should also mention that the statement I made in post #9 is incorrect: "It seems strange that if it is by one of these three that it is not branded with their name." If the brace was made by one of the big three for a hardware chain it would not necessarily carry the manufacturers name.

I have previously dissembled a ratchet selector by removing the single pin above the selector ring. This can be easy or hard, sometimes as simple as gripping it with vise grips or more often clamping it in the side of the jaws of the vise and wriggling it out. Once the pin is out the ring should be able to come up over the pawls. If the pin gets destroyed in this operation I would replace it with a short piece of the end of a drill bit of appropriate diameter.
I hope this is of some use to you.
Cheers,
Geoff.