Wow, just looked up the Hotley planes, beautiful! Just slightly out of my price range🙄... I thought my LN planes were expensive!
Wow, just looked up the Hotley planes, beautiful! Just slightly out of my price range🙄... I thought my LN planes were expensive!
Can a machine or sanding produce a surface like this:What am I missing ??
Reflection in Wood.jpg
To the best of my memory this was done with an old Stanley/Bailey #5.
This was done with either a #3 or a #4-1/2:
Reflections.jpg
This is the project currently on my bench.
It is difficult to get a camera setup just right to catch a reflection in wood. It is easier to see it with the eye.
Neither of these pieces have any finish.
You do not need expensive tools. It would help you to know the target you are aiming to hit. This is where someone you know with hand plane experience might be of help.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
When I learned to sharpen my woodworking improved tremendously. Learning to sharpen a block plane and a chisel is a game changer IMO.. I wold go Scary Sharp Method to do it cheaply and buy some old Stanley Chisels to start out. I bought a medium priced sharpening jig and was the best money I ever spent on woodworking.
For someone starting out from scratch I usually recommend W&D paper in the grits 240 (for creating a primary bevel), then 1000 (for a secondary bevel) and 2000 (for polishing). It is also possible to up the end level with Lee Valley green compound (scribbled on a flat chunk of hardwood or MDF). Buy a (cheap) copy of the Eclipse honing guide (available all over), and read about creating an angle setter for it (LN, amongst others, have one on their website). This is a cheap way of getting into sharpening. If you want to do it really cheaply, go here.
The reason I suggested a LA Jack, which is a bevel up plane (distinct from a Stanley #4, which is a bevel down plane), is that they are so easy to be proficient with. Less parts to set up, and they become sharpen, point and shoot.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I think you are missing precision, ability to fine tune quickly and safely, quiet, less sanding, and a new part of the craft. You sure don't need them, but it does make getting quality fits way easier.
A low angle jack plane is great. Stanley sells a decent one for cheaper than LV. IMO, it isn't as good as the LV, but it is way cheaper. You can find them for around $95 new last I checked.
Take about $6000.00 and buy every Lie Nielson hand plane in the Rockler catalog and get it over with all at once...because once you buy one you are going to eventually end up with every one ever made!!! and usually sooner than later!!! If there is any change left over use that to buy a few old antique planes because it doesn't stop with all the new ones. There is just something about planes that once you use one perfectly hair splitting sharp and in adjustment that leaves you hoping for the next board that needs planed.
I few years ago I was at the same place as the OP. But I had purchased 3,4 veritas planes. Used them occasionally but just for minor stuff. Went to a Woodcraft store and took a all day handplane class. Took away two lessons. For large long surface smoothing particularly from rough state what WASTE of time! But if and for me, that is a make or break if, you have and want to spend your time that way go take a class and learn how. You might find it enjoyable, kinda like doing all your plywood crosscutting with a handsaw.
The 2nd lesson that has been mentioned numerous times, learn how to sharpen and how often you need to touch up the blade. I came home and spent a few HOURS sharpening my plane blades and chisels and now when I find occasion to need them they do the job easily and pleasurably. But it is called Neanderthal forum for a reason. It is a mindset and I am grateful for the machine age that allows them to have chisels that are possibly worth$600.
I have been in some further out towns and villages in Guatemala a few times and most of their power equipment would be considered trash or too unsafe in the 1st world that most of us are privileged to live. They turn out furniture for custom and for retail and it looks good. But not up too most of our standards. Crappy equipment is a definite draw back. Obvious that sandpaper is the main way final smoothing is accomplished. Joints are another story. So my takeaway is that most of us reading this are damn lucky to have choices between excellent and maybe even better.
Last edited by Bernie Kopfer; 03-13-2019 at 4:14 PM. Reason: Added plywwod
Believe me I greatly respect the Folks that have these skills..
I am absolutely awed by stuff like a Maloof chair.
I am at least curious.
But I dunno... at risk of being flamed, I don't see any point for myself anyway.. at least past a block plane for little touchups.
I don't have a major desire to learn it, got plenty of stuff to do like resurrect a DR 12/14 etc.. and my customers are more than happy w my product.. as I am.
I make sub $1k caskets... my market wants "Plain, simple, affordable"
I WILL look into the more basic facet of this.. tuning up what I have.. will post about that down the road..but will probably stop at that.
I very much appreciate the responses.. Please don't feel poo pood at all.
Thank you ALL !!
Marc
I'm pretty new here, not as as experienced as most. Please don't hesitate to correct me
Marc, if you had posted at the beginning of this thread what applications you would put the hand tools to, I would have stated that you should stick to power tools. You make big boxes ... very nice big boxes ... but they do not have a lot of finesse, which is where hand tools are supreme. I see butt joints. I do not see joinery such as a mortice-and-tenon or a dovetail. If I were you and only building caskets, I'd keep doing what you are doing. Good work kept simple.
On the other hand, once you desire to venture into more complex pieces, where you wish to use traditional joinery, add fine mouldings, or work on a curve, etc etc ... then you will appreciate the extra level that hand tools can bring. I watched a brief video today that was send by FWW magazine. This featured Gary Rogowski adding 6 square plugs to the circumference of a round table top. He jokes that it took 1 1/2 hours to create a jig for his power router to drill the holes and to set up the jig, and then 6 minutes to actually drill the holes (which was to be followed by chisel work to square the holes). All this could have been done in a few minutes with hand tools. In sum, if you are building a lot of stuff that needs to be dimensioned, then power tools make more sense to do the donkey work. However, especially for one-offs, the finer work can be done more speedily with hand tools. Plus there are many tasks that can be done more easily, or only, with hand tools.
Try using a machine to make these drawers ...
... to fit into the curved front of this cabinet ...
Here is a very short video to illustrate ...
Regards from Perth
Derek
Last edited by Derek Cohen; 03-13-2019 at 9:19 PM.
Rex Krueger on Youtube dropped a video last week in which he bought a super cheap Stanley hand plane on Amazon, and walked through the process of tuning it up to a usable state. Just apply the same process to your hand planes and see if you can get the same results. If anything, you'd have learn what a hand plane can do after 30 minutes in front of your computer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrMQrKn61kA
IMG_20190314_105307_hdr.jpg
This is my beginners set the #5 is an ebay find $40 the #4 is a flea market find $12 I ran out of patience and got the two block planes from Patrick Leach cost me $110 since then I've picked up another block plane for $5 at a flea market. The chisels were $8 at Aldi.
Give the Neanderthals a chance they helped me and for every guy who recommends a $600 NL there's six guys recommending vintage because of the reasonable cost and the very high quality. Steve even invited me over to his shop and gave me a little lesson and tips for set up
I would just echo what alot of the other folks have said about getting a really nice surface and doing it quickly. Another thing that I might have just missed but didn't see is the sound and feel of the hand planes as opposed to sanders. I have some sanders left(hand held, RO and 1/4 sheet sanders, no drum sander etc), I haven't used one in a bit but I will if there's a reason too, not really a purist. I prefer the surface I get from hand planes, and find I can do it usually faster with planes than powered sanders. And with negligible noise and dust I just find it alot more relaxing and enjoyable. I look forward to flattening and smoothing a surface, which I always dreaded doing with powered sanders because of the dust and noise and vibration. I mean ya gotta do it so you do it, it just is what it is, but like I said, I actually enjoy it with hand planes.
If you can tune one up to try, or maybe find someone nearby who can let you try theirs out, you can find out if you like them and if they have a place in your shop.
Jon
[QUOTE=Jon Shank;2908667]I would just echo what alot of the other folks have said about getting a really nice surface and doing it quickly. Another thing that I might have just missed but didn't see is the sound and feel of the hand planes as opposed to sanders. I have some sanders left(hand held, RO and 1/4 sheet sanders, no drum sander etc), I haven't used one in a bit but I will if there's a reason too, not really a purist. I prefer the surface I get from hand planes, and find I can do it usually faster with planes than powered sanders. And with negligible noise and dust I just find it alot more relaxing and enjoyable. I look forward to flattening and smoothing a surface, which I always dreaded doing with powered sanders because of the dust and noise and vibration. I mean ya gotta do it so you do it, it just is what it is, but like I said, I actually enjoy it with hand planes.
If you can tune one up to try, or maybe find someone nearby who can let you try theirs out, you can find out if you like them and if they have a place in your shop."
Your comments about noise and vibration got me to thinking that if perhaps the serious money invested in handplanes etc were spent on high quality powered tools it would be much more enjoyable and with good results.
Handplanes are very fast an effective when well tuned. I surfaced a 53" wide countertop recently in about 20 minutes with a hand plane. I kept it flat, accurate and removed undulations left by machining.
After which I sanded 220grit ROS in preparation for finish and the sanding was very fast work given that the surface imperfections were already removed.
Just some thoughts. It's not just for the finest of fine work, but also very practical and fast.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
My whole shop probably cost me less than a Sawstop. I can do a lot more with what I have in my shop then I could do with a Sawstop.
Another member just posted about the 210 stitches he got with a tablesaw. You don’t often see the hand tool guys reporting those types of results.