electrical - switched outlet to shop

[Bill Dufour]

I would use a contactor with low voltage controls. I would install two way witches so it can be controlled remote or local. Inside have a pilot light or an illuminated switch
Bill D.

[Dan Hall]

Thanks Mike. I spent my declining years on the Alaska Pipeline. Soil conduction tests showed that those glacial deposits that most of the northern sections of the tube were built on were about useless for establishing ground. I once led a line wide lightning protection assessment team that surveyed and mapped the ground grid systems at each pump station. In short everything was tied together with 4/0 bare copper cad welded at each splice and building steel structure and buried adjacent to building footers. The pipeline gets struck by lightning about 8000 times a year. Each pump station has a microwave tower that provides an umbrella of protection from direct strikes to the stations themselves and presumably those of us walking around outside. Knock wood. The pipe itself is the reference.
Power generation is a whole different kettle of fish, as are hospitals and their operating rooms and curiously enough dairy farms.

Good to know you.
Dan

[Malcolm McLeod]

The unanimous opinion is to keep circuits in the shop, in the shop; and circuits in the house, in the house.
So, I will investigate smart switches per John’s suggestion or low voltage per Jim’s.

Thank you for the feedback.

^^^I don't think you will regret this.

With the relatively low cost of 'smart' bulbs, this is something you could control from your phone; no switching or wired remote control needed.

Depending on the HVAC system you are expecting to use in your shop, you can probably do the same with a smart T'Stat..?

[John Lanciani]

Dan,

Your exact words were “Do not use Romex in conduit. Code forbids it...” this is simply not true (and it’s one of my pet peeves). My point was that the NEC is full of exceptions and is open to interpretation. Using absolutes like you did often leads to confusion and to people taking things for gospel that aren’t.

[Dan Hall]

Dan,

Your exact words were “Do not use Romex in conduit. Code forbids it...” this is simply not true (and it’s one of my pet peeves). My point was that the NEC is full of exceptions and is open to interpretation. Using absolutes like you did often leads to confusion and to people taking things for gospel that aren’t.

For anyone planning an installation using type NM-B or equivalent please take care that you understand how the National Electrical Code works, how it is organized and especially what is meant by such words as approved and listed. Finally the code is open to interpretation. The question then arises, "who makes that interpretation?" I would suggest that anyone truly interested take a look at NEC Article 90.4.
"This code is intended to be suitable for the mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise jurisdiction over electrical installations, including signaling and communications systems, and for the use by insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules."

Article 90.4 is often referred to as "the inspector is always right" clause. It is rarely invoked. In a dispute with a permit holder I would normally simply refer him or her to my boss or the PE-E in charge of plan checking. I have been that authority at times in my career. I do not represent that I am now the authority having jurisdiction anywhere. I do stand by my original assertion though; do not use type NM-B cables in conduit or other raceways. The Code does not allow it because it is a listed material and the listing does not include use in raceways other than where as Mr. Lanciani so vigorously asserts it may be used for physical protection.

This is not the place for an in depth exploration of these rules. I may well write an article to provide general guidelines for folks contemplating an "owner contractor" build of a shop on their property.

[Greg R Bradley]

Dan,

Your exact words were “Do not use Romex in conduit. Code forbids it...” this is simply not true (and it’s one of my pet peeves). My point was that the NEC is full of exceptions and is open to interpretation. Using absolutes like you did often leads to confusion and to people taking things for gospel that aren’t.

If it isn't forbidden, it should be. I had always understood it was forbidden and I've seen a few examples of failures and lots of examples of immanent failures. Even on fairly low load lighting, it crumbles when touched after 25 years.
DON'T do it, even if it isn't forbidden. Looks like damage from excessive temperatures to me.

[Tom M King]

It's the old give an inch, and a mile is taken. Just cutting to the part that matters:

shall be protected from physical damage where necessary

[Jay Lombardo]

I was a Journeyman electrician for more than 40 years and would like to compliment Dan on an excellent explanation, your teaching skills are apparent. John if you ever have to defend your use of romex in an underground conduit to an inspector you will lose that argument and if you persist he will red tag your job! I know because I have been on differing sides of these "interpretations" many times, though never regarding romex. i worked in Chicago and it's not allowed here very much. Trust me, pet peeve or not the inspector is always right and in this case so is Dan. Don't do it!!!

[Rollie Meyers]

If the shop is detached, only 1 circuit is permitted to be run to a outbuilding.

[Charlie Velasquez]

Rollie, thanks.
When presenting my pLan to the AHJ I asked him about it. I was informed the intuitive opinions of the forum replies were accurate; one feeder or circuit, but not both.
He said a switch loop from the shop to the house was permissible as would the low voltage wire contractor, but not an additional circuit from the house to the shop.

As Art mentioned, a disconnect should be considered. He said my plan as drawn was ok as there were fewer than six circuit breakers, but if I added a couple more circuits I would need to add a disconnect, so I am switching to a panel with a main breaker or a separate disconnect. He suggested the disconnect needed to be at the shed, and immediate vicinity of where the line entered, either exterior or interior.

I will pull a couple of thwn wires for a possible switch loop in the main conduit, but I also plan to drop a 1 1/2” conduit run for low voltage and data.

Still open to suggestions for wireless controllers to be used from about 60 ft through 2x4 stud wall if anyone has any experience.

[Jon Singer]

any recommendations for an outlet/switch?

I will also run a 1” conduit for low voltage, internet, whatever.

I agree with the others. I don't like the idea of a branch circuit from the house going to outbuilding with the purpose of lighting and receptacles with space heater on them. That sounds like a fire waiting to happen, yellow romex and lighting is a pain in the rear and the next guy is probably going to curse you.


If I were you, I'd run three conduit runs from house to outbuilding. One for panel feeder, one for panel service receptacles and one for low voltage. Try and space the LV conduit 6"+ away from the other two conduit runs. Put your feeder wires in the 2" like you plan then run two more 1". One for LV and one for a service receptacle near the outbuilding's panel. The next guy will thank you for that. Don't shove Romex into conduit. I'm not going to get into it with Dan & John over nm-b in conduit. The only thing I know is that there are specific circumstances where nm-b is allowed in conduit however every sparky tradesman I know would transition nm-b through a box to a different conductor and never run nm-b/romex in conduit. But trade practice is all I know, not the rules.


Buy the big-ass 5-gal bucket of pull string. I don't remember the brand but it's white bucket with blue label. If you can't find it at HD/Lowes, a local electrical supply house should be fine selling it to you. If you do your conduit runs right, you can feed ~12-16" of pull string into one end, stick a shop vac on the other and and it'll suck the string the whole way down the run. Don't buy the sh*tty coffee-can size string containers at HD/Lowes. Nothing against the manufacturer but they are wound so tight in the container that they don't pull easy. They bunch and snag. Vacuum won't suck it the whole way down the line.


I'd do 4 runs of cat 6a. I'm an IT/data guy so I never run just one. Always two, minimum. An outbuilding like that I'd run 4. I'd give the 12ga its own conduit because if anything ever happened, with the size of your feeder conductors, it would be a ROYAL PAIN IN THE *** to have to try and back out and then re-feed 12ga in there. And idk what your fill numbers are but a second conduit run solves all that. Put your big wires in one conduit and small wires in the other, LV in the third.


Then, you have (non-switched) power at your outbuilding panel (for service only). But if you wanted to be slick, you could put a networked PDU (fancy internet connected power strip that you can turn on/off individual receptacles remote) with built-in (legit, listed) over-current protection so you could then run a heater. And put your lights on small/white romex off the outbuilding. Yellow romex and lighting is a pain in the rear. Just my $0.02...

[James Biddle]

Run the Cat 6 cable as Jon suggested. Add a Smartthings ($70) or similar hub and a z-wave switch ($30) and you've already improved on your switched outlet plan. How? No issues with power segregation and you can now switch that shop light on and off from anywhere your phone has a signal, not just from that switch location in your house. Plus, here are a few things that can be added at any time:

1. All indoor and outdoor shop lighting can be controlled with what granularity you want, not just one circuit.
2. Forgot to turn off your chargers or air compressor? Do it manually from your phone or automatically when you turn off the shop lights or after a period of time.
3. Unlock the door when you're not home and your neighbor wants to return your miter saw or it's raining and you don't want to get soaked while unlocking the door.
4. Turn your heat on or off, or a fan and hour before you head out to the shop.
5. Add a TV and watch This Old House during a sanding marathon.
6. Add cameras to keep in eye on everything or have someone else keep an eye on you.
7. Add wifi and check your designs on your laptop before you cut that sheet of plywood an inch too short.
8. Add internet to your new CNC and download your files, plus allow customer service to access your machine.
9. Add sensors to know if you really closed the shop windows or your neighbor really needed to borrow your miter saw again..

[Jon Singer]

6. Add cameras ... someone else keep an eye on you.
9. Add sensors ... neighbor really needed to borrow ...

Absolutely spot-on. Excellent comments. (the rest too, I just liked those in particular)