Best Gluing Practice with Shop Sawn Veneer?

[Ben Abate]

Hi Fellows,

Let me start off and say I don't want to hi jack this thread. I have one question about veneering and I did not want to start a new thread and a complete conversion. Hopefully one of you can give me an answer and that will be that.

I do veneering on occasion and this thread has been quite good to read. My question is I've never used paper backed veneer only raw or my own cut veneer. What do you use to put down paper backed veneer? I have to recover some veneered hollow core doors with mahogany veneer. I have my thoughts but would like to hear what all is used or available.

I hope not to cause this thread to go in another direction that was not my intention.

Thank you all
Ben

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Fellows,

Let me start off and say I don't want to hi jack this thread. I have one question about veneering and I did not want to start a new thread and a complete conversion. Hopefully one of you can give me an answer and that will be that.

I do veneering on occasion and this thread has been quite good to read. My question is I've never used paper backed veneer only raw or my own cut veneer. What do you use to put down paper backed veneer? I have to recover some veneered hollow core doors with mahogany veneer. I have my thoughts but would like to hear what all is used or available.

I hope not to cause this thread to go in another direction that was not my intention.

Thank you all
Ben

I only use paper backed veneer in very limited applications. In those applications, I treat it like Formica and use contact cement.

I'll just add that paper backed veneer is THIN - I mean the wood is thin.

Mike

[Ben Abate]

Thanks Mike,

That was what I wanted to know.

Ben

[John Blazy]

over the sanded Melamine with epoxy,

John

A little tip for you, if you like to veneer over melamine, as in my case when I wanted melamine interior (inside of cabinet doors to match interior of entertainment center), but exotic veneer exterior of cabinet. Use PL Premium polyurethane construction adhesive - works like a dream for several reasons: First off, PL bonds to melamine / HPL surfaces as a literal weld - never in my 30 years of gluing with PL to melamine, have I ever had it come off without abrading it off. No need to sand the melamine at all.

Second, is that the PL is solventless, so no shrink, which is what causes most warping during cure. Third, even though its high viscosity (pumped out of caulk gun), it rolls out great with rubber brayer roller. Even coat, and need to err on side of too little, because it expands as it cures. The viscosity also helps so it does not seep through pores. I veneered Pommele Sapele (open pore) and no bleed through. Then I sealed with epoxy, sanded, then topcoated with Auto urethane, then buffed. Still looks awesome to this day.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks very much for the tip, John. The Melamine literally trashed the sanding roll on my drum sander so your alternative is attractive on multiple fronts. I used epoxy because it has no water in it, but PL Premium sounds like a good alternative.

John

[Jeff Duncan]

Wow Jeff, beautiful work! What's the wood species and finish?

Thanks Andrew, definitely more modern than most of my work, but I enjoy a challenge every so often. That project presented a few challenges, applying the veneer to wrap down the side panel on a piece that large was fun!

The wood is Goncalo Alves, also known as Tiger Wood. I think I ended up using about 5 sheets of it and it runs about $400 a sheet.... pricey stuff! The finish is ML Campbel's Duravar in a sheen I dulled down a bit to be just shy of gloss. The finish is actually right off the gun, no work done after.

JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

Hi Fellows,

Let me start off and say I don't want to hi jack this thread. I have one question about veneering and I did not want to start a new thread and a complete conversion. Hopefully one of you can give me an answer and that will be that.

I do veneering on occasion and this thread has been quite good to read. My question is I've never used paper backed veneer only raw or my own cut veneer. What do you use to put down paper backed veneer? I have to recover some veneered hollow core doors with mahogany veneer. I have my thoughts but would like to hear what all is used or available.

I hope not to cause this thread to go in another direction that was not my intention.

Thank you all
Ben

Hi Ben, I glue paper backed veneer mostly the same way I glue raw veneer and thats with yellow glue. All the veneer in the pics I posted earlier in the thread, (and it's all veneer), are paper backed veneer. If your buying full size veneer sheets its pretty common that they'll come paper backed. And the thickness of the veneer itself is no thinner than raw in my experience. No offense to anyone else's methods as there's always multiple ways to get it done, but I would never use contact cement for veneer. I know guys do and to each their own, its just something I wouldn't allow in my shop. For laminate yes, wood.... nope.

Now I'm wondering how your going to go about veneering a hollow core door? You won't be able to bag it as hollow core will just collapse. There are other methods of applying, but most of those require pressure of one sort or another.... and a hollow core door, (at least the somewhat modern ones), just doesn't have much strength on the face. I think it would be a challenge to get a good bond even on a flat press. I'm curious how your going to do it?

JeffD

[Joe Jensen]

I edge glue all my veneer before I vacuum bag it. I start with 1/16" as well. I use the epoxy veneer glue mentioned on the first page of this thread. I do glue both sides as the only time I had problem withe the veneer bonding I only glued the substrate.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I make 1/16" shop sawn veneer, assemble panels in the usual with with veneer tape, and then glue it onto plywood, MDF, or particle board cores in a vacuum bag. By the time the panels are finish sanded I would estimate that the veneer is 0.050 - 0.060" thick. I've used Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue almost exclusively for at least years, but I also have used epoxy when I glued some to one side of Melamine after sanding off the coating. The MC of both the veneer and cores has always been between about 6% and 9% (30 - 55% RH), Winter to Summer in my heated, dehumidified basement shop. The temp. has always been at least 70F and I leave the panels in the press for 13 - 14 hours at roughly 20" Hg.
[...]

John

I have made some veneer applications at the last 25+ years and always used contact cement - consistently I had have great results, except for a single panel. I am not a frequent user of veneers but actually cement contact has been the single glue I have used for that application. It works.

[John TenEyck]

I have made some veneer applications at the last 25+ years and always used contact cement - consistently I had have great results, except for a single panel. I am not a frequent user of veneers but actually cement contact has been the single glue I have used for that application. It works.

I've used contact cement in special circumstances to glue commercial veneer to something. And I actually just used it to glue some shop sawn veneer, that I sanded down to 1/32" and then glued it to a Kraft paper backing with yellow glue, to Melamine. But I wouldn't consider it for gluing my normal 1/16" shop sawn veneer. Is that what you've had success with, or have you always used commercial veneer?

John

[Rhys Hurcombe]

Since you're state-side I won't recommend the product I use as it's not available outside of Australia from what I can tell (Techniglue 2:1 epoxy, very thick, tintable and glass hard when dry).

https://www.veneersupplies.com/ has some good info on their preferred glues. http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneeri...eneer-glue.htm

It's evident you're experiencing creep but whether it's creeping on the veneer side of the glue bond or the melamine side as a result of the veneer swelling/contracting, i'm not sure. I don't have any experience veneering onto melamine, either. So maybe I'm not much help at all. Recently veneered a large New Guinea Rosewood pivot door with 3mm veneers. Have done similar in the past, no issues yet and it's exposed to outside elements.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I've used contact cement in special circumstances to glue commercial veneer to something. And I actually just used it to glue some shop sawn veneer, that I sanded down to 1/32" and then glued it to a Kraft paper backing with yellow glue, to Melamine. But I wouldn't consider it for gluing my normal 1/16" shop sawn veneer. Is that what you've had success with, or have you always used commercial veneer?

John

I have used commercial veneers only... but it looks it would work also for (slightly) thick veneers also.

[Mel Fulks]

A tech guy for contact cement company told me the average life is 8 to 10 years. But he added it could last longer or fail
sooner. When it fails before being sent to job site the laminate guys don't ask tech guy what went wrong they just redo
with same stuff.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Rhys. I just read joewoodworker's glue review this morning. Osvaldo, you might want to read it, too. He does not recommend the use of contact cement on anything other than paper back or 2ply veneer. He also does not recommend yellow glue, but some folks here have used it for years w/o problems. Anyway, after considering lots of options I'm either going to move to epoxy or Unibond 800. As I mentioned earlier, I started out using Unibond 800 but switched to PRG because I could get it locally and it's cheaper. Reading the literature on Unibond 800 again revealed that it does not require high pressure to bond well, and it only needs to be in the bag for 6 hours or so. PRG, yellow glue, even cold press glue, all are supposed to have 100 psi or higher to bond well. Epoxy doesn't need high pressure to bond well either, in fact, low pressure is better, perfect for use in a vacuum bag.

Rhys, I've had veneer splits not only on Melamine but also MDF and composite core (particle board). Never with anything other than ash veneer, however. From the photos I posted earlier, I'd says the failure has been between the ash and the glue, not the glue/substrate bond. All the more reason to move to a glue that better wets and wicks into the wood. Epoxy might just be the best overall choice.

John

[mreza Salav]

I've used PVA, contact cement (for paper back), and epoxy (WS) for veneering. For epoxy (whether it's veneering or not) I always apply the very thin glue to both surfaces and let it sit at least 5 minutes and then once the glue has thickened a bit apply it again to the joints.