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Thread: Schooling on dados

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Schooling on dados

    Hi all,

    I'm making very slow progress on a NBSS-style tool chest for under my bench. I just noticed that it was exactly a year ago that I finished the rough milling of the lumber. Once I have more to show, I'll post a build thread.

    I purchased a LV Combo plane a bit over a year ago for the project, in part because I wanted to try dados by hand, and in part to upgrade my grooving plane. I fondly call it "The 17" because it has 17 adjustment knobs and it has proven to be a definite improvement over my vintage Record 043.

    This weekend, I final had a chance to work on figuring out dados with the plane. I did learn several things and discovered a potential issue with my copy of the plane. My spotty results were a combination of learning a new technique, tuning a new (complex) tool and a set screw that isn't quite up to snuff(?).

    Many, many thanks to Derek for his fine tutorial here:

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...ane-dados.html

    Go read that and you'll know what to do. Read on for tips on what to avoid...

    First, Derek is spot-on in noting that the nickers are critical. I tuned mine before starting, rounding the tips and getting them sharp. However, I also seem to have nickers that are soft and they rolled after the six short dados I cut (see below). Fortunately I have a friend with a metal shop and won't have to fly blind for my first adventure in tempering.

    Second, Derek is also correct that getting everything dialed is tricky, especially the first time (or first several times).

    Third, dados are hard! Most of my issues I chalk up to user error in set up and technique. I did hit the sweet spot a couple times and could feel the magic, but it was fleeting. Lesson: while I did do a several practice dados, more practice was in order when trying a new trick.

    Lastly, at least some of my poor results stemmed from the blade moving, despite much checking of adjustments. Eventually I noticed that when the skates are perfectly aligned to the outside edge of the blade on both sides (so the nickers are also aligned), the lateral set screw does not quite engage the blade on my specimen. Only about 0.5 or 1 mm short, but enough that at least once it shifted and tore into the side wall of the dado, with nasty looking results. Anyone have thoughts on this? Would be straightforward to file down the casting so the screw could engage, but...

    Fortunately, the nappy sidewalls will be inside the carcass, so I'm not too worked up about it, but am keen to get it all dialed in. I found the process quick once I got rolling and oh so much nicer than the table saw. I did manage 1 out 6 that wasn't totally embarrassing.

    And again, thanks to Derek for his tutorial as I'm much further along than I would have been!

    Thanks all,
    Chris

    Nicker afterwards

    IMG_4563.jpg

    Batten set up. Quick to set accurately with a combo square. Did one side then the other for each dado off the top as a reference side.
    IMG_4558.jpg

    Avert your eyes if you have a queasy stomach...here's the carnage:
    IMG_4560.jpg

    And finally a photo showing the gap between the lateral set screw and the blade:
    IMG_4562.jpg
    Last edited by Christopher Charles; 03-04-2019 at 1:00 AM. Reason: typos
    "You can observe a lot just by watching."
    --Yogi Berra

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Charles View Post
    Hi all,


    Lastly, at least some of my poor results stemmed from the blade moving, despite much checking of adjustments. Eventually I noticed that when the skates are perfectly aligned to the outside edge of the blade on both sides (so the nickers are also aligned), the lateral set screw does not quite engage the blade on my specimen. Only about 0.5 or 1 mm short, but enough that at least once it shifted and tore into the side wall of the dado, with nasty looking results. Anyone have thoughts on this? Would be straightforward to file down the casting so the screw could engage, but...
    I do not own that plane, so no hands on experience with it.

    I would contact Lee Valley. They will likely have a solution (Or a longer screw)

    I'd see if I could find a longer screw rather than filing down the casting. Even if you find one that is a few mm too long, you can file the screw without changing the casting at all.


    I'd also ask about the nicker. If it is rolling over that badly with wood contact then something is awry. I've made plenty of cutters out of A36 mild steel that are still hardy and in the same shape, just dull, after a few goes on Hard Maple.
    Making furniture teaches us new ways to remove splinters.

  3. #3
    You might have done better figuring things out for yourself, Christopher. It will work better if there is some clearance between the nicker and the edge of the blade.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Hi Christopher

    Sorry to hear that you are having a struggle.

    As I mentioned in my article, the main set up goal is that ...

    the nickers must be aligned exactly with the outer edges of the blade.

    Warren suggests that they can be set further away. I am not going to argue much with this, but will say that the distance away should be no more than a smidgeon.

    I had problems with the edge-holding of the nickers as well. For me, the solution was a 2 minute process of heating the tips red hot and quenching in oil (I assumed that they were O1). I left it at that. They have not chipped.

    The other two items were, one, remove the screws that adjust the nickers and leave them flat against the outside of the skates. Two, score the boundary lines with a knife. Leave the nickers to aid in cutting cleanly as you plane deeper. I have described the reasons for these in my article.

    Keep practicing. That is the only way.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  5. #5
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    Matt, thanks and I'm loath to mess with the casting.

    Warren, to clarify, you recommend a bit of clearance with the blade extending a wee bit outside the skate and nicker (as in a rabbet plane)?

    Derek, thanks for the guidance. I'm off for some peanut oil and a torch. I had the nickers and blade aligned to the skate as you recommend.

    I remain curious if the gap between the blade and lateral screw is intentional on LV's part. I suspect not, as setting the skate in far enough to engage the screw leaves much too much blade exposed. Anyone with a combo plane and 1/2" blade have the same gap? Regardless, I'll check with LV and report back.

    And I agree, practice is the best medicine and that missteps are part of the price of admission.

    Best,
    Chris
    "You can observe a lot just by watching."
    --Yogi Berra

  6. #6
    You don't want the blade interfering with the action of the nicker. The last thing you want is the blade to touch the sidewall of the dado as you are going; it will make a mess. You can have the distance between nickers as much as 1/16 wider than the blade ( 1/32 each side), and work quite nicely. But if you try to have the nicker and the blade line up exactly you are asking for trouble.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Chris; take on board the advise Warren has supplied within the above post, and also refer back to the instructions that were supplied with that plane. (see below)

    Setting the Scoring Spurs.

    The scoring spurs enable cross-grain work by severing the fi
    bers ahead of the blade, preventing tear-out. There are two screws that adjust the scoring spur, as shown in Figure 7. The spur retention screw locks the spur into position and the spur adjustment screw sets how far the spur protrudes from the face of the skates.
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 03-04-2019 at 7:15 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    You don't want the blade interfering with the action of the nicker. The last thing you want is the blade to touch the sidewall of the dado as you are going; it will make a mess. You can have the distance between nickers as much as 1/16 wider than the blade ( 1/32 each side), and work quite nicely. But if you try to have the nicker and the blade line up exactly you are asking for trouble.
    Warren, I am not sure if we are saying the same thing or not.

    I say that the edge of the blade must get as close to the line cut by the nicker as possible. I think that you are saying that there can be as much as 1/16" each side of the blade, but probably closer to 1/32" each side. My problem with this is that the dado will end up over-sized (and will require that you size the piece for the dado later for a fit).

    A dedicated dado plane, such as the HNT Gordon, sizes the nicker for the blade width. A 1/2" wide blade will cut a 1/2" wide groove. "Used to make a 1/2" dado (grove) across the grain or with the grain. The precision made nicker ensures a very neat and accurate dado as the wood fibres are cleanly severed when planing across the grain."

    The same occurs for the Veritas Combo plane blade used for a dado. It is exactly 1/2" wide.

    HNT Gordon and Veritas 1/2" blades (=12.7mm) ...





    If there was no nicker to cut ahead of the blade, the wood would spelch. Placing the nicker in line with the edge of the blade is tricky, but is the ideal. Giving it a smidgeon leeway - not enough to alter the dimension - would be a safe choice. But we are talking (or at least I am) less than 1/64". That is far less than you are advocating.

    So what am I missing here? Always happy to learn ... Is this a 18th vs 21st Century issue?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 03-05-2019 at 4:39 AM.

  9. #9
    No, we are not saying the same thing. I am saying there needs to be clearance; you are saying that the nicker is supposed to be "in line with the edge of the blade."

  10. #10
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    Warren, I agree that there needs to be clearance ... just not as much as you suggest. I am not doubting what you say - just trying to understand the reasoning, which you have not explained. My tolerances are smaller than yours. The three dado planes in the demonstration I did were set up as I described above. Each produced clean shoulders. No spelching evident. Evidently, this works.

    Here are two questions: (1) if you have the cutting edge of the nicker 1/16" each side of the blade, what makes the dado a clean cut? (2) Is there a smaller size blade/nicker combo to create a 1/2" (etc) sized dado, or is this irrelevant?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #11
    It sounds like you are having trouble reading what I wrote.

    I said "You can have the distance between nickers as much as 1/16 wider than the blade ( 1/32 each side), and work quite nicely." I did not say that the clearance needed to be 1/32. I did not "suggest" an amount.

    I think you would have trouble planing a dado that is 12.70 mm with an iron that is 12.70 or 12.71 mm wide. The nearest iron that came with my 45 plane is .476 inches. One could make a .500 dado with it but just a .476 groove. I bought the plane in 1983; this is the first I measured it.

  12. #12
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    Gad, Warren, having a conversation with you to obtain any detail is like pulling teeth.

    For the sake of the forum, I shall plane a few dados on the weekend and measure their width. Am I expecting exactly 1/2" on a 1/2" blade? No. However, it may not be much over this. Certainly not as much as a 1/16" each side.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 03-05-2019 at 10:37 AM.

  13. #13
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    Derek, you keep referencing 1/16 on “each side.” Warren did not say that. He said up to half that on either side (post No. 6). It is in the post you quoted (post No. 7). He makes that very clear in Post No. 11, but in post No. 12 you are still talking about “a 1/16” each side.”

    The fact that you keep misquoting/misunderstanding him might be part of the difficulty in communication.

  14. #14
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    Nicholas, you are correct. I misread that. Warren did write 1/16 wider than the blade, and not 1/16 each side. My apology.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  15. #15
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    Warren and Derek,

    Miscommunication aside, thanks for the clarifications. These details are exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for and will hopefully be of use to others as well.

    Best,
    Chris
    "You can observe a lot just by watching."
    --Yogi Berra

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