Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31

Thread: Sharpening jigs in general

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    2,151

    Sharpening jigs in general

    This is somewhat related to another thread that got off in the mud a bit. This is my experience with jigs. The first picture is a chisel in a MRk II jig and that is a .0025 feeler gauge under one side. The other side is touching a diamond plate, back side. The second picture is the same chisel in an Eclispe 36 jig and that is a.008 feeler gauge under the same side of the chisel. The wheels of the jigs were held as solid as possible to the plate. If you keep the jigs feet on the ground, so to speak and keep pressure off of the bevel the chisel should remain close to the plane of the jig. If you push down on the bevel you will rock the jig on the wheel. This chisel would have to have the side touching the plate ground down to meet the side with the gauge under it. The last time this chisel was worked was freehand about 15 years ago probably on a soft Ark. I carried to the field with me. My take on this is keep your pressure off the bevel and on the jig to keep it flat on the stone and let the jig do its job.
    Jim
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. I really like the Richard Kell guide for the rare occasions I use it. I have the one with the large wheels and those make it very stable.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    2,151
    The Kell guide would work OK as long as you have stones wide enough to accommodate them for wider plane blades. Almost all guides have limitations. I'm not trying to make any recommendation about guides to use just how they work.
    I wouldn't want to be a guide manufacturer. All the expectations surrounding their use would be like diving into muddy water not knowing if there are rocks in it or better yet someone is moving the rocks around.
    Jim

  4. #4
    Who is Richard Kell? Is that supposed to mean something to me? I don't know who that is.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Jones View Post
    Who is Richard Kell? Is that supposed to mean something to me? I don't know who that is.
    Touché The name of the contraption is the "Richard Kell honing guide". What am I supposed to say?

  6. #6
    Jessica, do you have any problems keeping it on the stone? Because of the width? A well made piece of kit from the looks of it, I guess that wide stance has always puzzled me.
    *** "I have gained insights from many sources... experts, tradesman & novices.... no one has a monopoly on good ideas." Jim Dailey, SMC, Feb. 19, 2007
    *** "The best way to get better is to leave your ego in the parking lot."----Eddie Wood, 1994
    *** We discovered that he had been educated beyond his intelligence........
    *** Student of Rigonomics & Gizmology

    Waste Knot Woods
    Rice, VA

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Ellsworth, Maine
    Posts
    1,805
    The Richard Kell guide is def a good guide. I don't use it much anymore since picking up the LN Guide.

    I actually disagree with your recommendations James. I am in the camp of letting the squareness of the chisel/plane blade to line me up. I spend time at the grinder to make damn sure that my edge is ground square to the sides. I always use a guide for a secondary bevel as this produces very consistent repeatable results. I am in no way saying that free handing is not a good way to sharpen and if I was a professional I certainly would be free handing. Since my time in the shop is limited then so is my experience free hand sharpening.

    I personally put pressure, very slight, at the bevel of the blade which then relies on the squareness of my bevel to set the secondary bevel. I certainly do not trust that the manufacturer of the guide created a device that has the wheel exactly parallel and square to where the blade is held in place. As long as I take my time at the grinder I will always get a square secondary bevel.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    2,151
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Shea View Post
    The Richard Kell guide is def a good guide. I don't use it much anymore since picking up the LN Guide.

    I actually disagree with your recommendations James. I am in the camp of letting the squareness of the chisel/plane blade to line me up. I spend time at the grinder to make damn sure that my edge is ground square to the sides. I always use a guide for a secondary bevel as this produces very consistent repeatable results. I am in no way saying that free handing is not a good way to sharpen and if I was a professional I certainly would be free handing. Since my time in the shop is limited then so is my experience free hand sharpening.

    I personally put pressure, very slight, at the bevel of rear the blade which then relies on the squareness of my bevel to set the secondary bevel. I certainly do not trust that the manufacturer of the guide created a device that has the wheel exactly parallel and square to where the blade is held in place. As long as I take my time at the grinder I will always get a square secondary bevel.
    i agree with most of what you say. The key things I see with your approach is the fact that you spend time at the grinder getting the edge square and probably good to begin with. If you are using the jig only with no experience than once you start by bearing down on the bevel the bevel becomes the jig and the guide looses its effect in jigging. If you are getting a good edge off of the grinder, hollow grind, you should be able to forgo the jig altogether and just go freehand. There are a lot of assumptions made when using jigs. Just like using a plane, you have to assume the manufacturer used reasonable care in producing their product, a plane is just a jig after all.
    Jim

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Jones View Post
    Jessica, do you have any problems keeping it on the stone? Because of the width? A well made piece of kit from the looks of it, I guess that wide stance has always puzzled me.
    A number 3 plane blade is no problem but when you go wider than that you need support at either side of the diamond plate or stone. It's not a problem with a diamond plate but a stone will get thinner of course.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    9,467
    I freehand all my blades. With the exception of my Japanese chisels, all others are hollow ground on an 8" CBN wheel, and then the hollow acts as a jig.

    I have used most of the honing guides. I own several. Curiosity drives me here. A honing guide is needed for BU bench plane blades.

    Of all of them, the one I like the least is the Kell #2 (mine has the large wheels). It is difficult to set the projection, and difficult to hold.

    The most versatile is the Veritas Mk2. I prefer using a projection stop rather than the angle setter, as this is quicker and less finicky.

    I like the LN a lot. It is solid and easy to set. Its weakness is for high angle settings, such as 50 degrees. This rubs the body.

    The sharp skate is interesting, and great to train side sharpening.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    A honing guide is needed for BU bench plane blades.
    Why do you say that? I sharpen my block plane blades without a guide just fine.

    It is difficult to set the projection, and difficult to hold.
    I use my small combination square to set the projection. Works perfect. I've never had a problem with the Kell guide not holding the blade.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    DuBois, PA
    Posts
    1,897
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    I really like the Richard Kell guide for the rare occasions I use it. I have the one with the large wheels and those make it very stable.

    I generally sharpen free hand, but there are some instances when a jig is needed, and the one I use, is also the Richard Kell, although I have yet to upgrade to the larger wheels. I'm surprised why these jigs are not more popular!
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

  13. #13
    James,
    When using the Eclipse guide it is much better to put the downward force near the chisel edge.
    The whole point of the narrow roller, is that it can be tilted any which way.
    A wide flat roller dictates to the tool whereas a narrow roller leaves us in control, which I find infinitely preferable..

    Richard,
    I think you should be aware of Richard Kell, as he is a Yorkshireman who has been making and selling useful guides for at least 10-15? years.
    He is a very skilled toolmaker, and used to make fishing reels for Hardys, who are a famous supplier of fishing gear.
    Workshop Heaven have his kit.

    I got the no. 1 guide about ten years ago, when I reviewed it for F&C magazine. It is brilliant for ensuring a square edge on narrow chisels. 1.5, 3, 4.5 mm etc.

    We had a serious discussion about wheel size, which was then 1 inch diam.
    I wanted bigger wheels but his capstan lathe was not big enough!
    We came up with the idea of running the wheels on 6 mm Perspex, which had a slot in the middle. This made the guide think it was on 1 1/2 inch diam. wheels.
    The present wheels are much better and I still run them on the Perspex to get a longer projection.

    Projection is measured from the bars. Not too difficult.

    You probably know by now , that I am a big fan of honing guides and have quite a large collection.
    (I hate the early Sharpskate….)

    Best wishes,
    David Charlesworth

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    2,151
    Quote Originally Posted by david charlesworth View Post
    James,
    When using the Eclipse guide it is much better to put the downward force near the chisel edge.
    The whole point of the narrow roller, is that it can be tilted any which way.
    A wide flat roller dictates to the tool whereas a narrow roller leaves us in control, which I find infinitely preferable..

    Richard,
    I think you should be aware of Richard Kell, as he is a Yorkshireman who has been making and selling useful guides for at least 10-15? years.
    He is a very skilled toolmaker, and used to make fishing reels for Hardys, who are a famous supplier of fishing gear.
    Workshop Heaven have his kit.

    I got the no. 1 guide about ten years ago, when I reviewed it for F&C magazine. It is brilliant for ensuring a square edge on narrow chisels. 1.5, 3, 4.5 mm etc.

    We had a serious discussion about wheel size, which was then 1 inch diam.
    I wanted bigger wheels but his capstan lathe was not big enough!
    We came up with the idea of running the wheels on 6 mm Perspex, which had a slot in the middle. This made the guide think it was on 1 1/2 inch diam. wheels.
    The present wheels are much better and I still run them on the Perspex to get a longer projection.

    Projection is measured from the bars. Not too difficult.

    You probably know by now , that I am a big fan of honing guides and have quite a large collection.
    (I hate the early Sharpskate….)

    Best wishes,
    David Charlesworth
    David, if the bevel is in plane with the flat back of the chisel and the edge is square to the side that works. If either is out and you tip the jig to compensate the chisel will be out of plane and out of square at the edge. It's not me its geometry.
    the same as a lateral lever on a plane. In your case how good the bevel is to begin with determines how it will finish in relation to the flat back which is registered on the jig.
    Jim

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    9,467
    A honing guide is needed for BU bench plane blades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    Why do you say that? I sharpen my block plane blades without a guide just fine.
    Jessica, I also hone my block planes without a guide. They are hollow ground at 25 degrees, and then freehanded on this holow.

    However my comment was not about block planes but about BU bench planes. Since these are single iron planes, they are used with a high cutting angle. Tha is 60 degrees or more. A secondary micro bevel at this angle is easier and more reliably done using a honing guide.

    Clearly guides are a personal matter. Thank God we are not the same! I dislike the Kell, you and David love it. David finds fault with it but has a work around. He dislikes the early Sharp Skate. I like it because it hones sideways, which is how I sharpen mostly. The SS is finicky to set up, and I do not use it often - generally when the bevel on Japanese blades could do with flattening. There is some evidence that side sharpening leaves a stronger edge than a back-and-forth direction.

    I like the simplicity of side holding jigs, such as the Eclipse and LN. I think the Veritas Mk2 is an excellent guide as well, and some benefit no doubt from the wide range of areas it covers. My needs for guides are few. 99% of the time it involves a high micro bevel on a BU bench plane (which is not often since I mainly use BD and freehand them).

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •