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Thread: Do Pros use rough sawn boards for Kitchen cabinet builds?

  1. #76
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    Curious what's the trend in your area? Here almost all (if not all) new homes get those modern style kitchen, at the higher end they are acrylic or lacquer over falt slabs. I find they are a lot more easier to build, required minimum amount of labor (at least skilled worker) and probably have the most profit for shops too.
    As I said, I have been to a local shop (or factory should I say) that has replaced all its fully automated machines with 4-5 of these monster machines that take multiple sheets on one side and spew out ready doors on the others. The only manual work I saw was workers putting together boxes and hardware.

  2. #77
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    I agree they are much less work if your setup for them as you describe and maybe even if your not but not by much if not.

    We just finished a inset slab style kitchen, small to medium or normal. It took two guys exactly 11 days start to finish not including paint. So that’s 96 man hrs..

    The kitchen prior was also slab style full overlay and painted with 80% conversion varnish. Our painter had a nightmare of a time getting the paint to lay down without orange peel and or particulate in the paint. 80% is very high gloss and it shows everything including the scratch pattern from sanding between coats with 320 bellow.

    I can’t tell our painter nothing and all he wants to shoot is cv I suspect cuz it’s dead easy to use but I suspect cv is not the way a high gloss kitchen is achieved hence why they are called European laquer or Italian laquer. I’m sure it’s all done by machines but I’m positive it’s not done with cv unless there is some thing I don’t know.

    But anyway the paint job took forever and cost a fortune but the kitchen build is a bit faster. I’d say it saves maybe three days as you don’t have to make five panel doors or end panels but that would be it if even that. Maybe only two to be honest.

    I
    Quote Originally Posted by mreza Salav View Post
    Curious what's the trend in your area? Here almost all (if not all) new homes get those modern style kitchen, at the higher end they are acrylic or lacquer over falt slabs. I find they are a lot more easier to build, required minimum amount of labor (at least skilled worker) and probably have the most profit for shops too.
    As I said, I have been to a local shop (or factory should I say) that has replaced all its fully automated machines with 4-5 of these monster machines that take multiple sheets on one side and spew out ready doors on the others. The only manual work I saw was workers putting together boxes and hardware.
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 03-09-2019 at 3:59 PM.

  3. #78
    I always ordered lumber skip planed 2 sides and SLR. That way I cut pick and choose, and have my glueups thick enough to surface down to 13/16 or 3/4.
    I ordered my face frame material to size though.


  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Walsh View Post
    I suspect cv is not the way a high gloss kitchen is achieved hence why they are called European laquer or Italian laquer.
    Acrylic urethane and cut and buff like an automotive paint correction.

    I'm not set up for it at all, and this was the first finish I ever sprayed, but it turned out OK. Amboyna burl veneer was fun, too...



    Last edited by J.R. Rutter; 03-14-2019 at 9:07 PM.
    JR

  5. #80
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    That’s nice.

    I have seen our finisher shoot laquer and I thought the same “Italian Laquer”.

    When I was told he was having issues and he was using cv for a high gloss finish I thought much the same.

    You know for whatever reason cv is all the guy wants to spray.

    I dint know if it’s time between coats or what but it’s something about cv as he really beats his head against the wall and pitches a fit if you suggest he spray anything else.

    I don’t know maybe the fumes just got to his brain and or he is dumb as a pile of bricks. Maybe both?

  6. #81
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    Conversion varnish is the choice for most projects because of durability. Some of the 2K finishes will probably eclipse that, but CV is durable stuff once it's chemically cured. Lacquer doesn't even compare...but is a lot easier to polish for sure.

    ---
    JR...that thang is darn beautiful! Shiny!!!!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Space View Post
    Anyway, I have concluded it must be impractical for a pro to mill his own lumber to be used in making cabinets, unless possibly if it is a high end (read very expensive) installation. Just seems like it would be much more efficient time wise to buy demensioned lumber and “just get it done”.

    Curious to hear how close I am to hitting the target with this conclusion.

    Bill
    When I was up north and buying rough lumber from a hardwood store I saw a lot of pros in there. Mind you the wood was already mill sawn but still needed further milling if it was ever to become a cabinet. I was told about 80% of their sales came from pros.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." - Mark Twain

    Diapers and Politicians need to be changed often... Usually for the same reason.

  8. #83
    That may well be the case if they were needing some odd ball stuff or a small footage fill-in. There is no pro-shop out there, that isnt doing boutique work, that can profitably mill from dead rough. Its no to say we all dont do it when we have to. We recently fell a few hundred feet short on a large job and our only source for a small quantity of material to finish was from a source that didnt offer surfacing or straightline rip. So we brought it in dead rough. We knew it was going to be a nightmare before we brought it in which was good because it was in fact a nightmare.

    Its one thing to need to pick through and flip flop boards, stand back and scratch your chin pondering visual pleasure of the layout. But its another to be running even fairly standard high end work where you run parts and of course reject a fair number of parts for color or grain but your pretty much building saleable product.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  9. #84
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    Not true!. Please refer to post number 57.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    There is no pro-shop out there, that isn't doing boutique work, that can profitably mill from dead rough.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    That may well be the case if they were needing some odd ball stuff or a small footage fill-in. There is no pro-shop out there, that isnt doing boutique work, that can profitably mill from dead rough. Its no to say we all dont do it when we have to. We recently fell a few hundred feet short on a large job and our only source for a small quantity of material to finish was from a source that didnt offer surfacing or straightline rip. So we brought it in dead rough. We knew it was going to be a nightmare before we brought it in which was good because it was in fact a nightmare.

    Its one thing to need to pick through and flip flop boards, stand back and scratch your chin pondering visual pleasure of the layout. But its another to be running even fairly standard high end work where you run parts and of course reject a fair number of parts for color or grain but your pretty much building saleable product.
    I used almost exclusively rough lumber for 17 years in my cabinet and staircase shop.


  11. #86
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    You know I’m not sure how much a profit we turn but we just ordered all 5/4 rough to make our next kitchens doors with.

    Sadly we have been having issues with doors moving “warping” and the panel pulling from the stiles and rails.

    I think I’m gonna have to cover all bases this job. Pins only top and bottom and panels sized properly with spaceballs.

    We will still build this project on schequal even bouldingndoors from rough. But you know it all adds up over a year. You win some and you loose some, or rather I think you make what you need to then you loose so you had better be finding ways to get ahead and milling lumber for kitchen cabinets is not gettting ahead.

    I couldn’t have been sold in this a few years ago when I was new to the trade and it’s not what I would do if I was building boutique cabinets but I’m not and most aren’t..

  12. #87
    Starting from rough isn't going to do anything from keeping lumber from moving.

    There's no old growth being used. Growth rings are a mile apart. Of course it'll be unstable.

  13. #88
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    If you want truly flat material, with at least a reasonable expectation of flat product when done, I believe you need to start with rough material.
    That’s not to say you can’t get fairly flat stock pre-roughed from a supplier, but it makes mediocre product generally speaking.
    I have bought a little bit, and in EVERY single case, I can get a flatter more consistent product by hand.
    I OWN my company, and I have a vested interest in making a profit. I also have a desire to put out product that won’t come back on me.
    25 + years, no warped door calls. I know, I must be doing something wrong.
    We may not be “profitable” in the eyes of some business people, but we have a pretty well equipped shop, compared to many, we do not get callbacks, and we all can eat every day.
    I can live with that.
    Pre rough milled material is ok for flooring and running trim, that’s about it at our shop.

  14. #89
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    A cabinet shop might go out of business doing it this way but I process material for furniture taking an approach which minimizes reaction movements.

    I plan my major millwork for any project ahead of the project by a few weeks (if possible) so that I can work the material in a few stages. First stage is a rough breaking down, from rough lumber to rough part dimensions (so long as they're oversized for further processing). Wait a period of time, then move into surfacing, references then dimension. Once they're at dimension I want to process through the project quickly because often enough I find the final form retains the wood's flatness if I did my design work well enough.

    Certain projects just don't call for it and I can move from rough to finished in one day but the parts are always straighter if I give them time between stages of work.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  15. #90
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    Peter you know I did not read back in the thread and my response was not directed at you or anyone who does not agree with me. It was just my oppinion.

    You know there are always a million variables and I can’t disagree that rough would be best. If it was my business and it was my name my choice would be the same. But it’s not so I have had to go to the dark side and do things the way another needs. At least in our shop we are not getting $1500 a lf for primed paint on site cabinetry so we just can’t build heirloom quality cabinets.

    Now if I was working out of my own shop building four kitchens or rather projects a year “kitchen, vanities, library, built ins than you know I could turn a great profit and make some very high end work.

    I know there are shops out there with many men that can produce a very high quality product and for whatever reason they do very very well. My former employers would use those shops and to be honest they never ever seemed to be hurting but thriving.

    I think the shop I work for is aligned with a pretty shitty sector of the custom cabinet market. I think “think” we build custom cabs for corner cutting budget minded “high end projects” you know high end to you and me but not high end to high end. We also build plenty for homeowners that are really stretching to afford custom cabinets hence find their way to us as I have a feeling we are not the lowest quote but probably right in the middle..

    Quote Originally Posted by peter gagliardi View Post
    If you want truly flat material, with at least a reasonable expectation of flat product when done, I believe you need to start with rough material.
    That’s not to say you can’t get fairly flat stock pre-roughed from a supplier, but it makes mediocre product generally speaking.
    I have bought a little bit, and in EVERY single case, I can get a flatter more consistent product by hand.
    I OWN my company, and I have a vested interest in making a profit. I also have a desire to put out product that won’t come back on me.
    25 + years, no warped door calls. I know, I must be doing something wrong.
    We may not be “profitable” in the eyes of some business people, but we have a pretty well equipped shop, compared to many, we do not get callbacks, and we all can eat every day.
    I can live with that.
    Pre rough milled material is ok for flooring and running trim, that’s about it at our shop.

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