Chisel sharpening - difficulties

[Andrew Fleck]

Have you tried a different chisel or iron in the jig? If those come out fine than at least the jig should be ok.

[James Pallas]

Jessica; proceed with caution. The Ides of March are approaching. Whats been requested is akin to being thrown into the Roman Colosseum with a bunch of hungry lions

Stewie;

you must have been reading Stewie

[ken hatch]

Just one question-do, or have you, owned the (bejeweled piece of kit) Veritas jig in question? Because if you have not, what makes you qualified to comment on what you perceive to be its limitations?

Mr. Jones,

I have owned the jig in question and can attest that it has the problems mentioned. The limitations of top clamping jigs are well known even if made by LV.

ken

[Jessica de Boer]

Now after about 20 years of woodworking, my sharpening skills are pretty good, but it still amazes me how skill can improve even after all this time.

My bevels were always a tiny bit convex. Not much mind you, maybe a curve of 0,25mm. It was the result of the rocking motion a lot of us unintentionally and automatically make moving the chisel back and forth over the stone. I was talking with Stanley Covington about sharpening and he told me about an article written by researchers at the uni of Tokyo. The found it's easier to erase the scratch pattern of the previous stone with the next higher grit stone if the bevel is fully flat. I changed where I put pressure and was able to get true flat bevel quite easily and the result speaks for itself. There's no difference in sharpness or edge retention but I get to the end faster now.

[Jim Koepke]

The quest for sharpness could drive you quite mad if you let it, and it seems some are well on their way.

And some of us have arrived.

[edited]
Why can it be as simple as 'Sharp tools are important to good woodworking results, how one gets their tools sharp is not important.'?

Though simple answers are often the best, some folks like to add layers of complexity.

Well first of all, I would challenge that a grinding facility is standard equipment in a workshop. I have one in mine, but plenty of woodworkers get by fine without a grinder. But to the point, my assumption, which may be wrong, is the the OP does not have a grinding station. Did you miss the part where he indicated that he established the primary bevel not with a grinder, but rather his grinding jig? It's not a question of what I am, or am not, aware of. It is a question of assisting the OP with the challenge he is facing with the equipment he has on hand. Suggesting that he needs to buy a grinder, or buy a side mount jig, or learn to sharpen freehand does not help with his question!

My shop still doesn't have a set up to hollow grind. There is a project underway to have one.

If one doesn't have a grinder a blade holding jig may be the fastest way to get to a useable bevel.

jtk

[Chris Parks]

If one doesn't have a grinder a blade holding jig may be the fastest way to get to a useable bevel.

jtk

For someone who sharpens on maybe a monthly basis I would contend it is the only way to get a reliable result which is why hollow grinding is such a good thing. The bevel is so small the angle is irrelevant within reason and if the result is not good enough it takes very little time and metal removal to start again.

[Jim Koepke]

Freehand skill is important from a practical perspective. It’s very fast once you get the hang of it. Developing a feel for it is important in many other aspects of the work.

When a blade needs honing, free hand sharpening can often be done quicker than the time it takes to find the holder and set it up with the blade.

My bevels were always a tiny bit convex. Not much mind you, maybe a curve of 0,25mm. It was the result of the rocking motion a lot of us unintentionally and automatically make moving the chisel back and forth over the stone. I was talking with Stanley Covington about sharpening and he told me about an article written by researchers at the uni of Tokyo. The found it's easier to erase the scratch pattern of the previous stone with the next higher grit stone if the bevel is fully flat. I changed where I put pressure and was able to get true flat bevel quite easily and the result speaks for itself. There's no difference in sharpness or edge retention but I get to the end faster now.

Over the last few years the "tiny bit convex" of the bevel is when they get redone. More recently this has caused me also change my approach to holding a blade while sharpening, to help keep the convexity from occurring.

As mentioned in an earlier post, there will always be more to learn.

jtk

[Doug Dawson]

For thousands of years people all over the world were taught, or taught themselves how to get their tools sharp enough for the task at hand. The time mucking about with a jig is better spent on learning to sharpen. It's really not that difficult, I promise. You will find you can get a chisel just as sharp, or sharper, in less time and be back to work faster. After a couple of times you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

I still try to sharpen freehand, for probably longer than you've been alive, but one thing you neglect to consider is that as some of us get older, this ability is not what it once was, and a jig is helpful. Write back to me when you're using a walker too. :^) (Among other things we have to deal with, regrettably.)

[Charles Guest]

And some of us have arrived.



Though simple answers are often the best, some folks like to add layers of complexity.



My shop still doesn't have a set up to hollow grind. There is a project underway to have one.

If one doesn't have a grinder a blade holding jig may be the fastest way to get to a useable bevel.

jtk

How do you handle turning gouges, etc.?

[ken hatch]

For someone who sharpens on maybe a monthly basis I would contend it is the only way to get a reliable result which is why hollow grinding is such a good thing. The bevel is so small the angle is irrelevant within reason and if the result is not good enough it takes very little time and metal removal to start again.

Chris,

Monthly? That is some good iron.

ken

[Rob Luter]

When a blade needs honing, free hand sharpening can often be done quicker than the time it takes to find the holder and set it up with the blade.

I find this to be true, and have worked hard to gain the skills to perform these touchups freehand. A couple swipes is usually all it takes to keep the edge razor sharp.

As mentioned in an earlier post, there will always be more to learn.

And I aspire to learn a little more every day. Sometimes damn little, but I keep moving the needle

[Phil Gaudio]

To answer the OPs original question: the LV guide uses an eccentric adjustor to change the sharpening angle, thus adding a micro-bevel. The roller is fixed at one end, and eccentrically adjusted at the other end. This results in a roller that is slightly out of parallel with the blade edge. You need such little work on the edge of the blade to create a micro-bevel that its not a big deal. As far as the chisel slipping: I had this problem too. Take some PSA abrasive paper and line the jaws of the clamp: this will help keep a more secure purchase on the blade. I used the PSA paper that I used for sharpening (e.g. 3M micro-finishing film, 15 micron).

[Jim Koepke]

How do you handle turning gouges, etc.?

With stones and one of these:

Veritas® Mk.II Power Sharpening System.jpg

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...35&cat=1,43072

It is like an electrical 'scary sharp' system.

It has proven itself quite versatile.

jtk

[J. Greg Jones]

To answer the OPs original question: the LV guide uses an eccentric adjustor to change the sharpening angle, thus adding a micro-bevel. The roller is fixed at one end, and eccentrically adjusted at the other end. This results in a roller that is slightly out of parallel with the blade edge. You need such little work on the edge of the blade to create a micro-bevel that its not a big deal...

The wheel assembly consists of 4 major parts-the axle, which is fixed in both rotation (when in use) and location on both ends, an eccentric cam on each end, the roller which rotates independently of the axle (on the eccentric cam), and the adjuster knob. The adjuster rotates the cam, on the axle, to one of three positions that changes the height of the blade carrier, which as a result changes the angle that the blade is presented to the stone. The axle of the jig remains in the same location and the roller remains, for all practical purposes, parallel to the stone and the blade in the jig. It does not, at least not by design, skew the blade to one side.

[Charles Guest]

The wheel assembly consists of 4 major parts-the axle, which is fixed in both rotation (when in use) and location on both ends, an eccentric cam on each end, the roller which rotates independently of the axle (on the eccentric cam), and the adjuster knob. The adjuster rotates the cam, on the axle, to one of three positions that changes the height of the blade carrier, which as a result changes the angle that the blade is presented to the stone. The axle of the jig remains in the same location and the roller remains, for all practical purposes, parallel to the stone and the blade in the jig. It does not, at least not by design, skew the blade to one side.

It's even simpler than that Greg - the blade, chisel, etc. just slips.

The flaw in the design has nothing to do with the roller, cam, wheel or any of the related parts, it's the top clamp that is to blame. This is why others have suggested using sandpaper to hold whatever is being honed more firmly and I've suggested switching to dry honing media if abandoning that particular jig is out of the question. Narrow chisels are particularly prone. It's a beautifully designed jig, except for the fact that the cutter or chisel clamps from the top instead of from both edges. Marples made a top clamping jig, I think Sorby had one years ago, Woden as well I'm almost positive, probably more, they were all basically clones of each other. They all suffered from the same issue, the item being honed will often skew underneath the top clamp. If you're just taking a few strokes for a quick hone it's usually not a big deal. If you're doing relatively heavy removal for whatever reason, it can be a big deal.