There's nothing wrong with A2

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice work, Vincent!

I recall that from a long while ago that Stan had mentioned plans for it, and I know of a blacksmith making them individually for western planes with an ura (I don't recall who, offhand). The Tsunesaburo one that I have was flat on the back but I tapped out to create an ura.

Having the ura is definitely better but I think they either pre-bend them or bent them in a machine to set them after heat treating. Or perhaps they have some sort of hydraulic clamp for them while they're being quenched (I have no idea, just speculating).

I'd imagine it becomes very predictable when the steel and iron are of uniform size and the heat treatment process is always the same and so they can immediately counter it through some process. They sell retail at about $45, so the landed cost in the US is probably about $15-$20, so the price to a manufacture buying these in the hundreds at a time should be cheaper still but maybe it is still yet more expensive than making them in A2. They're probably $4-$5 in materials plus processing for A2 irons, so I'd further assume it is nearly a wash.

[Warren Mickley]

Also I've realized this has nothing to do with A2. oops.

Your post about manufacturing problems may have an awful lot to do with A2. I don't think we know to what extent manufacturing considerations played a role in choosing A2 for today's small manufacturers. A2 machines easily and apparently behaves well in heat treatment. Tools steels that did not have these qualities may have been eliminated from consideration. Traditional edge tools were forged, not machined, so that opens up possibilities for different types of steel.

About a month ago I was thinking about blacksmiths cranking out chisels in the 18th century. A journeyman cabinetmaker could buy about 8 chisels from dealer Christopher Gabriel for just one day's wages. And Gabriel became rich off the deal. A guy who made chisels all day for years could have made tens of thousands. That is enough volume for a blacksmith to learn to compensate for heat treatment problems and be awfully good at it. That is one of the benefits of repetitive work, that one can foresee problems and take appropriate steps to avoid them.

[Tony Wilkins]

It’s threads like this that drive me crazy about this forum. I have a set of LN chisels in A2 and they work fine. I might have gotten the LV PM-V11 if they had been out. I’m not as knowledgeable as some here but I certainly have made the chisels work. Partly this is because I’ve watched David’s video on using Chisels. Those on here who seem to dismiss his talent and knowledge only show about their own knowledge and character.

[Vincent Tai]

Nice work, Vincent!

I recall that from a long while ago that Stan had mentioned plans for it, and I know of a blacksmith making them individually for western planes with an ura (I don't recall who, offhand). The Tsunesaburo one that I have was flat on the back but I tapped out to create an ura.

Having the ura is definitely better but I think they either pre-bend them or bent them in a machine to set them after heat treating. Or perhaps they have some sort of hydraulic clamp for them while they're being quenched (I have no idea, just speculating).

I'd imagine it becomes very predictable when the steel and iron are of uniform size and the heat treatment process is always the same and so they can immediately counter it through some process. They sell retail at about $45, so the landed cost in the US is probably about $15-$20, so the price to a manufacture buying these in the hundreds at a time should be cheaper still but maybe it is still yet more expensive than making them in A2. They're probably $4-$5 in materials plus processing for A2 irons, so I'd further assume it is nearly a wash.

Thanks Brian!
There are good Damascus manufacturers, along with san mai type construction. A single layer weld should be pretty cheap for those guys. Perhaps the west does have avenues in terms of getting the laminations done at a big scale. I don't think a clamp would be used while quenching, cracking would seem like the end result. A bit of both prebend and bending after the HT seems plausible. I hope I can get the ones from Stu at some point soon, just to see their construction. And then it's off to recreate some with a proper ura.

[Vincent Tai]

Your post about manufacturing problems may have an awful lot to do with A2. I don't think we know to what extent manufacturing considerations played a role in choosing A2 for today's small manufacturers. A2 machines easily and apparently behaves well in heat treatment. Tools steels that did not have these qualities may have been eliminated from consideration. Traditional edge tools were forged, not machined, so that opens up possibilities for different types of steel.

About a month ago I was thinking about blacksmiths cranking out chisels in the 18th century. A journeyman cabinetmaker could buy about 8 chisels from dealer Christopher Gabriel for just one day's wages. And Gabriel became rich off the deal. A guy who made chisels all day for years could have made tens of thousands. That is enough volume for a blacksmith to learn to compensate for heat treatment problems and be awfully good at it. That is one of the benefits of repetitive work, that one can foresee problems and take appropriate steps to avoid them.

Warren, I suspect the availability of precision ground A2 and it's very appealing behaviour in HT is quite appealing. There are knife makers who order small rectangular precision ground blanks by the hundreds; perfectly sized for CNC to do their thing. A2 is very available. It retains its tolerances after HT even better than O1. Receiving your steel precision ground is awesome for small manufacturers. Minimal movement in the steel after HT is even better. Personally the few A2 tools I have perform fine. I don't own any A2 chisels though. A2 is quite well received in the knife world.

A blacksmith that made tens of thousands of chisels could probably adjust and compensate for movement by eye and feel only for much of his career. Repetitive work is something I am benefiting from trying to make planes and the irons that go with them. It'll take a few more tries but I do look forward to the first tapered iron that goes in the quench all curved and bent one way and comes out straight and flat. The same goes for chisels. I suppose I could bypass all this by ordering tapered A2 blanks or getting O1 round bar machined into chisels but there is no fun getting rid of the advantages of a laminated tool. Also a mill and shaper are expensive .

[Derek Cohen]

It’s threads like this that drive me crazy about this forum. I have a set of LN chisels in A2 and they work fine. I might have gotten the LV PM-V11 if they had been out. I’m not as knowledgeable as some here but I certainly have made the chisels work. Partly this is because I’ve watched David’s video on using Chisels. Those on here who seem to dismiss his talent and knowledge only show about their own knowledge and character.

Tony, I sympathise with your comment. This needs some context however, as there is valuable information in this thread which appears to be contradictory.

The way I think about it is that all tools could be classified "poor", "will do the job", "better than that", "really pretty good", "over and above what is necessary". Note that only "poor" should be discarded. All the others (probably most tools) will do the job.

Now there are different levels of tools doing the job (which may be subjective and in the eye of the beholder, or may be objective and tested as empirically as possible). Some steels may appear to do the job the same, but now it comes down to the users interpretation of what they consider "adequate", "good" and "better" consists of. I think that there is a consensus that A2 is "adequate", perhaps even rated as "good", but there are other steels that are better. "Better" does not negate "good".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Larry Frank]

I just want to add a short comment about these steels used for chisels and tools. Often, I read about people making blanket statements concerning how O1 or A2 or others work. It is important to understand that the heat treatment is critical. Either of these grades can work well or perform poorly depending on the heat treatment. It is extremely difficult for us to judge the quality of the heat treatment for a particular tool.

In the case of O1, heat treatment is fairly simple. However A2 is much more difficult and complicated to get the full properties from it. It can include two stage heating, air cooling, careful tempering and even cryogenic treatment. The type of heat treating greatly influences the properties and how well it performs in a chisel. In one case, you might have an A2 chisel work well and with a different treatment encounter chipping.

[Thomas Wilson]

An example of what Larry Frank is saying can be found on the Lie- Nielsen web site. It says they do all the steps Larry talked about.




Our A2 Tool Steel Blades are cryogenically treated, hardened to Rockwell 60-62 and double tempered. We use a heat treating technique that ensures the blade will take and hold a very fine edge for a long time.
After heat treating, the blade is fully surface ground on the top, back, and cutting edge, giving a smooth, flat surface that will take a mirror finish very quickly.
Our blades are thick to provide solid, chatter-free cutting. They come ready to use, but honing a secondary bevel of 5° to 10° will increase performance, help achieve a razor edge quickly, and improve edge life in hardwoods.

[Brian Holcombe]

I put hundreds of hours on LN A2 blades prior determining that they were not my preference. All of these treatments make a workable blade but not one that lets go of the wire edge easily. They’re the only blades I have that require stropping after the finish stone and start forming micro chips which leave lines in the finished surface. High carbon blades degrade with consistency, so they begin to leave a surface which is less fine as they dull.

We’re almost always discussing the finer points of blades on this side and there remains a wide berth between usable and optimal, I don’t think it is out of bounds to bring up those points when discussing preferences.

[Tom M King]

I have two planes with A2 blades.

The first is a LN hinge mortise plane. I needed to adjust the intersection of a pair of 200 year old double entry doors. I didn't want to do any trimming on the doors, so, in this case, the best attack was to lower the hinge mortises. I figured out exactly how much I wanted to lower each mortise, and wanted to hit it right the first time, without having to take the heavy doors in, and out, more than once. I could have done it with a paring chisel, but liked the idea of the plane better. I looked at old hinge mortise planes, the LN, and the LV. The LN was cheapest, so that's the one I bought for the job. It worked fine, but the iron was nowhere near ready to work out of the box.

The second one is an Edge Trimming plane. On the same house that those entry doors were in, we did a Lot of work to the windows. They had been painted shut, and the goal, which we achieved, was to get them to work flawlessly. The paint was so thick on the window stools, that after slicing the joint between the stool, and the sash, there was still too much interference. I decided that A2 would be a good choice for a cutter to plane the thick paint down to the level that I wanted, so I ordered another LN plane. It did that job just like I wanted it to.

While there may be nothing wrong with A2, as the title of this thread states, I still don't like it. For the woods that I work mostly for a living, Heart Pine, and Cypress, with once in a while some Walnut, or White Oak, stock Stanley, and Record irons, and 01, or similar, are my preference.

[Tom Levy]

I have a number of vintage Stanley pattern planes and both planes I have from one specific non-Stanley manufacturer have laminated blades. I didn't realize it when I was buying, but they have become my favorite users. I have over time non-scientifically attributed it to the laminated blade. Sounds like I am not the only one who believes that construction works well. I recently bought some kikuhiromaru Japanese chisels and a vintage US slick with a laminated blade. Hoping for similar positive experience.

Tom

[Jessica de Boer]

I really like the Quangsheng T10 carbon steel plane blades. They're quite cheap, sharpen nicely, take a keen edge and they dull just the way I like.

[Charles Guest]

I saw this fellow's work mentioned elsewhere. He seems to have made peace with A2 and Lie-Nielsen tools (assuming the cutters are A2). It may be that the last tool to touch the two tabletops was a scraper though, which might cause howls itself. There are other videos from the same firm. Hard to find flaws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TNtaamaaf8

[Tom M King]

I wonder what type of Hock iron that is in their Stanley smoother.

[Charles Guest]

I wonder what type of Hock iron that is in their Stanley smoother.

Don't know. Looks like mostly L-N stuff used in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7otLVAZh0Y

Please rewind from the start.

Is that a high-angle frog in his smoother?