There's nothing wrong with A2

[David Bassett]

Who, in general, complains about A2?

I see two major groups. (Sorry for the outliers I miss.)

Those who want to use finer angles, I've seen as extreme 15 to 20 degree bevels mentioned. This is where A2 is very prone to chipping. (For this, I don't care why they want these fine angles, just acknowledging they do helps me understand their position, but perhaps they do more paring or work softer woods.)

And those who want to sharpen on specific (usually traditional) media, e.g. Arkansas stones. The hard carbides in A2 aren't cut by some of these sharpening abrasives and your finest edge is therefore limited by the carbide size. O1, and other simple high-carbon steel, don't have this problem. (But e.g. D2, I'm told, is much worse.)

Warren's issues are honestly beyond my comprehension. I'm not sure if the results he sees are due to a combination of these two things or some additional thing(s) I haven't figured out. (Just to be clear, I don't doubt he sees them. His experience and standard of work are something I'll never achieve. Maybe someday I'll at least be able to understand.)

Also, David Charlesworth's satisfaction with A2 is understandable with these two metrics. By his account his angle at the edge is 32 to 36 degrees and he sharpens with synthetic waterstones that use a ceramic abrasive and can cut A2's carbides. (Plus I assume he has quality A2 chisels with optimum heat treatment that has minimized carbide size.)

[bridger berdel]

When I went to Woodworking in America a decade ago, A2 irons and Shapton stones, 15000 or 16000, were the rage. Unfortunately none of the A2 irons performed like what I was used to. Planes costing 10, 20 times what mine cost and more were just not leaving as fine a surface. One guy had planes 100 times what mine cost and later wrote that he sharpened everything Friday night in his hotel room. I was the first one to visit his stand the next morning, but his planes did not leave a slick surface. He subsequently abandoned A2.

One time when I went to a Lie Nielsen event I took a loupe and looked at the edges of chisels. Every last one had small chips in the edge.

I don't think A2 was even developed with chisels and plane irons in mind.

My (not a metalurgist, or a machinist) understanding is that A2 is a punch press steel. In a punch press the cutting edge has a bevel near 90°. That plus the high abrasion resistance mean that A2 can punch out shapes in steel for a long time.

[Tony Zaffuto]

When I went to Woodworking in America a decade ago, A2 irons and Shapton stones, 15000 or 16000, were the rage. Unfortunately none of the A2 irons performed like what I was used to. Planes costing 10, 20 times what mine cost and more were just not leaving as fine a surface. One guy had planes 100 times what mine cost and later wrote that he sharpened everything Friday night in his hotel room. I was the first one to visit his stand the next morning, but his planes did not leave a slick surface. He subsequently abandoned A2.

One time when I went to a Lie Nielsen event I took a loupe and looked at the edges of chisels. Every last one had small chips in the edge.

I don't think A2 was even developed with chisels and plane irons in mind.

I started my powder metal parts making business in 1989 and at the time, A2 was a preferential material for cored (round) punch portions of tooling, known for its "toughness".

[Tony Zaffuto]

My (not a metalurgist, or a machinist) understanding is that A2 is a punch press steel. In a punch press the cutting edge has a bevel near 90°. That plus the high abrasion resistance mean that A2 can punch out shapes in steel for a long time.

Correct, though in my application, bevels are 45 degrees.

But as an addenedum to my previous post and an addition to this one, through the years, I've seen many materials used interchangeably, with processing the key. For example, I've seen D2 used for punch material, but with atypical heat treating parameters along with a double draw (using normal specs, results in D2 punches brittle as glass). In other words, cam it be used for plane blades, chisels, etc.? Why not! I made an A2 blade years ago, heat treated it in the tool shop portion of my plant, per the supplier's explicit instructions, and found it not even suitable for use as a thick scraper! Conversely, I've had great luck with a Hock after market block plane iron. My iron of choice? O1! But, I've had excellent results with A2, D2 and LV's PM-V11 (now there's a material I never thought would ever be used for chisels!).

[Brian Holcombe]

I don’t like using A2 for all of the for mentioned reasons. I use proper media and still don’t like it. It has a very durable wire edge.

[Derek Cohen]

Philip Marcou turned to Veritas A2 blades for his planes. However he would also rave about D2 and, when I questioned the wisdom of this, he replied that it was all in the heat treating. D2 could be made to hone easily and cut sweetly.

I purchased a set of Blue Spruce chisels shortly after Dave Jeske began making them. In fact, I have the first 3/4" chisel he made. At the time I was in two minds because the A2 steel needed to be honed at 30 degrees for best results. My mindset at the time was a bevel at a preferred 25 degrees. It dawned on me that my oire nomis were all honed at 30 degrees, and they did not appear duller for this (damn sharp in fact!). That is what swayed me to purchase them. I have never experienced a chipped edge on a Blue Spruce chisel. As I mentioned in another thread, they take a wonderful edge. If you cannot do work with these to the same standard as the best chisels in the world, then the problem is you. Not the A2 steel.

I have owned and used a LV LA Jack plane since 2004. At least a dozen of these years the plane was used with A2 blades with a 25 degree bevel on a shooting board. In all these years, not once did I chip an edge. Today I use PM-V11, but because it is a better steel - lasts longer and I prefer the feel when it sharpens - but that is not a rejection of A2 as a tool steel.

In Oz the longevity of an edge is likely to be more of an issue than in the USA. Our timbers tend to be very abrasive and they test steel considerably more than most other countries. A2 and HSS (M2) have long been a favourite among woodworkers, both in planes and in chisels. O1 really does not hold up as long. I like the way O1 sharpens (it is like silk compared to A2), and have a couple of sets of O1 chisels (boxwood Marples, original Stanley 750s, and LV). I use them because I like them, but their edges dull quickly, and it is back to the LV PM-V11 and Koyamaichi. Or the Blue Spruce.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

I'm talking out of school here, but I can only deduce from my own success with A2 that the difference must be for heavy users or those working long enough hours to notice.

Personally, my A2 chisels the A2 blade on my #4 work about as well as my eye and hand can tell. Had I read this thread before I bought a few of these, I probably would have steered clear - but it would not have made a bit of difference to this hobbyist.

I have PMV-11's on a couple other planes, and on 2 other chisels. I just don't see a difference.

This is not to say there is no difference, but I suspect for the *casual user*, it may not be a significant difference. Maybe for some, good is good enough.

[Brian Holcombe]

If someone offered me a fireball whiskey I would decline it in favor of a fine hand forged single malt.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... a fine hand forged single malt.

Now we're talkin' STEEL!

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Personally, I prefer the X19 steel, which is compact and aerodynamic, and was a lot of fun back in my college days. Recently I've been using some vintage RX7, which is a rotary tool steel, and some BMWM3 German steel. I found it much better and used less oil than the XJ2 British steel. Of course there's the Japanese GXR750- lighter weight, faster, but much more dangerous. If you're wanting an American steel, you can go with the old GT350, or a newer GT500. I prefer the classic, but the prices on eBay have skyrocketed. Anyway, I'm saving to one day have the ultimate steel of them all: The 427AC. Old, but still a classic. There are a lot of good modern copies of it these days, as original 427AC steel is very rare and very expensive.

[Derek Cohen]

Malcolm, I loved my '57 356A. It was the classic Porsche. I much prefer driving my Boxster S. It handles better, has more power, and just works all the time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I think my opinions of A2 are colored a little by an expectation bias. I tried a couple of replacement A2 irons. As I recall they cost a little more than an equivalent O1 iron. At the time people were talking about A2 the way they talk about PMV 11 now, and the extra cost sounded like it was worth it.

However, they did not noticeably improve the performance of my Stanley style planes over the stock irons. The edge it took was not any better than what I got from my stock irons, and it did not keep it long enough to make it worth the extra time sharpening it. That was my opinion anyway.

If I had been working with a harbor freight chisel and somebody sent me one in A2, I am sure I would have regard A2 as a miracle material.

I'm talking out of school here, but I can only deduce from my own success with A2 that the difference must be for heavy users or those working long enough hours to notice.

[James Pallas]

Personally, I prefer the X19 steel, which is compact and aerodynamic, and was a lot of fun back in my college days. Recently I've been using some vintage RX7, which is a rotary tool steel, and some BMWM3 German steel. I found it much better and used less oil than the XJ2 British steel. Of course there's the Japanese GXR750- lighter weight, faster, but much more dangerous. If you're wanting an American steel, you can go with the old GT350, or a newer GT500. I prefer the classic, but the prices on eBay have skyrocketed. Anyway, I'm saving to one day have the ultimate steel of them all: The 427AC. Old, but still a classic. There are a lot of good modern copies of it these days, as original 427AC steel is very rare and very expensive.

Griffith made some interesting steel also 3 to 8 in one leap.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

As for the sharpening routine described in the first post, you say you're going from an 800 grit stone to a 15000 grit stone. The 800 grit stone leaves a very serrated edge. The 4 following gentle strokes on the 15000 grit stone only gently polish the tips of the serrations. .

Rob Cosman starts with 1000 diamond stone then to 12000 (15000?) water stone (shapton?). No one argues about the shavings he produces. By the way, he's a big fan of David's ruler trick, which I don't use because all my blades are dead flat on the back.

A2? Just as good as the O1, pmv11 and Japanese steel I have in my shop. I am a practitioner, not a theorist when it comes to woodworking. Some people insist 25*, 30*, 35*...I don't care...my free hand sharpening angles are never measured.

Simon

[J. Greg Jones]

Rob Cosman starts with 1000 diamond stone then to 12000 (15000?) water stone (shapton?). No one argues about the shavings he produces. By the way, he's a big fan of David's ruler trick, which I don't use because all my blades are dead flat on the back.

Cosman uses a 1,000 Trend diamond stone, then moves directly to a 16,000 Shapton glass stone. Most, if not all, of his blades/chisels are IBC A2 Cyro. He's done the same routine for several years now (although he used to use a 1,000 Shapton instead of the Trend) and he gets fantastic results.