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Thread: Is Hunter #5 just for end-grain?

  1. #1

    Is Hunter #5 just for end-grain?

    Hi!
    I'm a beginner but have been away from turning for a few years. The last tool I purchased was a "Hunter #5" chisel. I want to turn some small boxes(up to 3 inches) and would be starting from a 2 or 2.5 inch square piece of wood. Could I do everything with the hunter, including the initial rounding or should I use a spindle gouge to round then switch to something else to form the box and only use the Hunter for hollowing the endgrain? I don't have a "fingernail" gouge.

    Thanks,
    Paul

  2. #2
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    Paul,

    I believe the #5 (straight and swan neck) were designed for inside boxes and vessels but they work fine for other things including bowls. I think you can use one on the outside of a box (including initial roughing). I'm thinking a different tool might be easier, especially without a lot of experience. For the outside and longer spindles I prefer a spindle roughing gouge (I like the 5/8" Thompson), a skew, a bowl or spindle gouge, or a Hunter Hercules tool. I've never thought to try the #5 for that.

    Perhaps John Lucas will see this and respond. He has a lot of experience with the various Hunter tools.
    John has some videos on Hunter tools you might look up. This one is on turning the inside of a bowl using the #4 which has a larger cutter but in the same orientation as the #5. (I prefer the sturdier #5 tapered shaft tools.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VP398qXQXc
    This video doesn't have any turning but just shows how the #5 tool is oriented for some special cuts.
    John writes: "This one is how to use the tool to turn the underside of overhanging lips on bowls. I haven't found a better way to get clean cuts and reduce sanding. The Hunter #5 is one of my most used tools and this is just one reason. Hope it helps some of you."

    Have you seen the demonstration videos on the Hunter web site?
    http://huntertoolsystems.com/hunter-...onstrations-2/

    One thing you can always do - call Mike Hunter and ask! He is almost always accessible by phone and very helpful.

    I do prefer some of the other Hunter tools better for some things. For example, except for some detail in the center of the base I turn these small dished platters almost exclusively with the Hercules. (I haven't tried the #5 on these.)

    penta_plates_comp_small.jpg

    The Hercules and Osprey have the cutter angled which I think makes them easier for lots of cuts. I use them in a bevel-rubbing mode but they work well as scrapers too and won't catch. If I had just one Hunter tool, it would be the small Hercules for the kinds of things I like to turn. It's not the best for hollowing the inside of a box but I do often use one in the shear-scraping mode to smooth the inside of things like these ornaments (this one cut in half to show the inside):

    bells_cutaway_IMG_5169.jpg

    JKJ

    Quote Originally Posted by paul handley View Post
    Hi!
    I'm a beginner but have been away from turning for a few years. The last tool I purchased was a "Hunter #5" chisel. I want to turn some small boxes(up to 3 inches) and would be starting from a 2 or 2.5 inch square piece of wood. Could I do everything with the hunter, including the initial rounding or should I use a spindle gouge to round then switch to something else to form the box and only use the Hunter for hollowing the endgrain? I don't have a "fingernail" gouge.

    Thanks,
    Paul

  3. #3
    Those pics are beautiful John! I hope I get good enough to turn boxes like that! The size and the convenience of the Hunter is great. Imagine! No more sharpening! If I could get by with just two - maybe three, Hunters I would be pleased. Small boxes and bowls are all I intend to turn. I'll leave the large stuff to the big people, I'm just an old Hobbit myself!

  4. #4
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    I would suggest a Hunter Hercules to do the outside and maybe even hollowing out most of the inside. You can start using it as a scraper to get the shape roughed. Then use it as a bevel rubbing tool to really clean up the outside. The go back to scraping to hollow the inside. The use the #5 to clean up the bottom and sides. For Boxes those are great tools. John K listed several of my videos on using the Hunter tools.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul handley View Post
    Those pics are beautiful John! I hope I get good enough to turn boxes like that! The size and the convenience of the Hunter is great. Imagine! No more sharpening! If I could get by with just two - maybe three, Hunters I would be pleased. Small boxes and bowls are all I intend to turn. I'll leave the large stuff to the big people, I'm just an old Hobbit myself!
    Thanks! I mostly like to turn smaller things too.

    You apparently live in a secret, undisclosed location (are you in the witness protection program? ) but if you lived near East TN give a holler and come visit! - you can try out all the Hunter tools and feel the difference for yourself. And we could have a box-making class. (My fee is a good story and maybe a joke. No puns allowed.)

    I don't get too much time to turn but love to make boxes. My box-making did get easier when I started using the Hunters. I still use a variety of other tools but love the control and how sharp the tools are. The Hunter tools do have some limitations, though, for example I can't get some detail I want without going to spindle gouges, detail gouges, skew chisels, or special scrapers.

    For me big bowls don't hold much interest, although I have turned a number of them. For one thing, I don't usually make things to sell and there are only so many big bowls the average gift recipient has room for. Turning green is just too easy to be a challenge, and for a given big chunk of dry wood I can either make one big bowl or cut it up into smaller pieces and make a lot more people happy with ornaments, boxes, finger tops, magic wands, etc. Besides, half the turning population and their brothers seem to be focused on the giant bowl game so I'd rather do something else.

    In case you are interested, here are a few boxes I've done. You've got me fired up now, time to make some more!

    cocobolo_boxes.jpg BOC_C_Jack_01_IMG_6687.jpg pod_box_comp.jpg needle_casesC.jpg
    persimmon_boxes_e_small.jpg threaded_ebony_3_IMG_6755.jpg profile_PC134124es.jpg BOC_E_IMG_7162.jpg

    (Sorry, I love photos and get carried away sometimes. I've posted most of these in the past.)

    JKJ

  6. #6
    John K, the photos are great and a good inspiration! When I get big I hope I can turn as well! Although at seventy-six, I don't think I'll get any bigger except side-wise.

    I live in middle georgia, about 16 miles South of Macon. I have been known to visit East Tennessee from time to time Smoky Mountain Woodcarvers Supply used to be about 20 miles out of Maryville I used to go there. My sister used to live on a mountaintop just out of Sevierville.

  7. #7
    Thanks for replying John C and thanks for making the videos. I will definitely put the Hercules on my list for a future purchase. I have 7 or 8 of the HF cheap Turning tools. They of course, are not the best but they do work, after a fashion.

  8. #8
    Well I just figured it out on the Hunter site. I have a #3 Hunter instead of a #5 Badger. They have the same size cutter it seems(3/8") but has a straight shaft instead of a tapered one. Will all your recommendation change now and can I still hollow the inside of boxes with this?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul handley View Post
    Well I just figured it out on the Hunter site. I have a #3 Hunter instead of a #5 Badger. They have the same size cutter it seems(3/8") but has a straight shaft instead of a tapered one. Will all your recommendation change now and can I still hollow the inside of boxes with this?
    Yes. The larger, tapered shaft is sturdier and gives more security for deeper cuts. Most boxes are fairly shallow so it shouldn't make much difference. I like to use a box rest on deeper boxes for inside support. I have one from Best Wood Tools and recently got a larger one that Robust recently started selling.

    Last time I drove past the Nawger Nob store in Townsend it looked like it was closed down, perhaps out of business.

    Thanks for the complements. I usually try to think of different designs for boxes and such - I make sketches in a notebook before I turn. I'm not too awfully far behind you in age, turning 69.

    JKJ

  10. #10
    John K, Welcome to the "Ole Geezer's Club!
    Now that we've covered the Hunters(and I watched all John's videos) How do the Easy Wood tools compare(EWT)? I see they are about the same price range, but judging from a youtube video I saw, you use them straight in to the center of your turning rather then rubbing the bevel. rubbing the bevel isn't easy for me on my spindle gouges but it seems like something easier to do on the hunters. I guess the EWT's are making it easier for beginners! What do you think about them? Also, anyone else reading this feel free to comment!

  11. #11
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    My only experience with the Eazywood stuff was fairly early. After using real lathe tools I was aghast at how HORRIBLE they were, no comparison to the Hunter cutters today. These were flat topped carbide cutters which would work sort of OK as scrapers on some types of wood and conditions (until they got dull), but usually resulted in surfaces full of tearout. OK, I guess, if you like coarse sanding. I gave all mine away (actually donated them for a benefit auction.)

    A few years ago someone posted that you can make bevel rubbing cuts with the typical carbide tools and linked to a video to prove it. I watched carefully and what I saw was a lot of tearout, visible even with the lathe running. The video never even stopped the lathe to show resulting piece up close and I think I know why.

    You are correct that the EWTs and copies have made it easier for a beginner to get started. And they are very cheap if you buy the cutters - you can make one for maybe $10 or less. But I know some people who never got past the "getting started" phase and never really learned to use cutting tools. And unfortunately, their work shows it. In this case they may be more of a long-term handicap than a way to get started. I have no experience with any recent evolution of the EWTs and clones. I do know that at least one person is selling ripped-off clones of the Hunter tools and another is selling the cutters at a discount.

    I have seen newer carbide tools that use a different type of cutter but I think they are all still used as scrapers. I personally have no interest in buying one to evaluate since I'm pretty happy with the traditional tools.

    The Hunter cutters are far different than the flat-topped carbide cutters. With the angled tools like the Hercules, Osprey, Viceroy, and others, you can effective use them in the scraping mode for a much cleaner cut than with the flat cutters. Some of it is the sharpness of the edge and some may be due to the small size of the cutter. You still get a far better surface cutting with the bevel gliding mode instead of scraping. Which Youtube video shows scraping in the bottom of a box? You usually hold the tool at an angle for a cutting rather than scraping action. Scraping with the tools with cutters mounted horizontally (and with the tool axis rotated so the cutter is horizontal in the other axis) can result in a big catch. I think John L mentions this in on of his videos.

    If the spindle gouges are sharpened well the bevel gliding should be the same or very similar to the hunter, especially with angled-cutter tools like the Hercules. Learning to effectively using the spindle gouge is a big key to learning fine tool control so you can turn anything with a variety of tools. There are specific exercises I have students work on. Actually, I start all new students with the skew chisel which they universally find a lot easier than the spindle gouge. The skew is the first tool I put in the hand of even someone who has never seen a lathe before. I have never had someone fail to learn to use it in one short session, and have never had one get a catch. If you don't already use the skew, drop in if you get up this way for a quick lesson! I can show you how the exercises to make all this easy. (I learned all this from books when I started turning - I never watched a video or saw someone eise turn until later.) With good, hard, fine-grained wood you can easily learn to make cuts that need no sanding or perhaps just 600 grit, especially on smaller things. This dogwood finger top needed no sanding:

    top_dogwood_nosanding_IMG_4.jpg tops_comp2c.jpg

    BTW, I love making these things - I've made hundreds. They are an excellent way to hone turning skills.

    I've said this before in other threads, many expert turners and teachers say the same thing - learn spindle turning first before going to bowls and such. Spindle turning will teach you the fine tool control you need for all other turning. I can provide references!

    JKJ


    Quote Originally Posted by paul handley View Post
    John K, Welcome to the "Ole Geezer's Club!
    Now that we've covered the Hunters(and I watched all John's videos) How do the Easy Wood tools compare(EWT)? I see they are about the same price range, but judging from a youtube video I saw, you use them straight in to the center of your turning rather then rubbing the bevel. rubbing the bevel isn't easy for me on my spindle gouges but it seems like something easier to do on the hunters. I guess the EWT's are making it easier for beginners! What do you think about them? Also, anyone else reading this feel free to comment!

  12. #12
    You know, I think I told you that I had turned before. It's been almost 10 years now and I have forgotten most of what I learned to do before. You talking about the skew reminded me I used to use it a lot. I remember now turning beads with it and dovetails for the chuck. Trying to sharpen the thing by hand would not be easy! Getting sharpening equipment would equal or exceed the cost of the lathe! It's so easy to ruin an expensive tool on a conventional grinder.

    I was playing around with my 4 x 36 belt sander the other day and put a cheap HF spindle gouge to it. I felt for the bevel before I turned it on and then rolled it around the curve with very little pressure and you know what? That sucker was as cool as a cucumber! It was sharp too. I'm not going to try anymore sharpening on those grinding wheels anymore.

    You know after watching some more videos and reading your comments, I'm not so impressed anymore. Besides I already have one Hunter so adding another wouldn't cost as much as the three EWTs I'd have to buy!

    So what do you think? Which hunter would I have to buy to babysit me and compliment the #3 Hunter I already have? I can only get one for now.

    I bought a Beall Treen kit last week. It's just to ease me into boxes. I don't like the two-piece lid/stopper combo, it seems kinda clunky to me. After I use up the three that's in the kit, I'm going to try turn a lid without it.

    Paul

  13. #13
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    I don't use grinding wheels anymore for sharpening but CBN wheels on bench grinders. For skews I use a 600 grit CBN wheel on a 1/2 speed grinder. (The price of CBN wheels has come WAY down - I buy from Ken Rizza at Woodturners Wonders.) I set a flat tool rest precisely the same each time with a little plastic gage I made, here are some and one in use to set 90-deg for card scrapers (don't have any shots sharpening the skew):

    _scrapers_IMG_7811.jpg template_angle_IMG_7898.jpg

    I find that sharpening the skew like this is not difficult with just a little practice. The 600 grit CBN sharpens it easily but it's not aggressive enough to take off a significant amount of metal. Skews sharpened with a straight edge are easier to get perfect than those with a curved edge but even those are not hard after a bit of practice.

    Too bad you can't try them all first, but if I were buying just one Hunter tool it would be the small Hercules, for the kinds of things I like to turn. If I turned a lot of larger bowls or platters I'd want the larger Hercules too.

    If you ask Mike Hunter, he might tell you the Hercules is best used in scraping mode and the Osprey is better for bevel following cuts since the shaft is round for turning at an angle. I told him that I thought the Hercules was better for that since the square shaft has more metal and is sturdier than the round shaft. The beveled corners on the Hercules tools are fine for support when rotating the tool for bevel rubbing cuts (IMO).

    Although I can do them with other tools, I usually reach for the small Hercules to cut both the bottoms and tops of my squarish dished platters.

    IMG_7506.jpg penta_olive_comp_IMG_7459.jpg

    One thing about these (and most other) tools: I don't get them with handles but make metal inserts and swap out tools as needed. This allows me to store lots of tools in one shallow drawer instead of storing tools+handles for each. For example, I keep six Thompson 3/8" spindle gouges all sharpened identically and don't stop to sharpen until they are all dull.

    textured_handles_hunterIMG_.jpg insert_spare.jpg

    It's not difficult to turn these inserts from aluminum on the wood lathe with standard woodturning tools. They cost almost nothing to make.

    IMG_20150420_121555_806_se.jpg shavings_IMG_20150420_12241.jpg

    JKJ

    Quote Originally Posted by paul handley View Post
    You know, I think I told you that I had turned before. It's been almost 10 years now and I have forgotten most of what I learned to do before. You talking about the skew reminded me I used to use it a lot. I remember now turning beads with it and dovetails for the chuck. Trying to sharpen the thing by hand would not be easy! Getting sharpening equipment would equal or exceed the cost of the lathe! It's so easy to ruin an expensive tool on a conventional grinder.

    I was playing around with my 4 x 36 belt sander the other day and put a cheap HF spindle gouge to it. I felt for the bevel before I turned it on and then rolled it around the curve with very little pressure and you know what? That sucker was as cool as a cucumber! It was sharp too. I'm not going to try anymore sharpening on those grinding wheels anymore.

    You know after watching some more videos and reading your comments, I'm not so impressed anymore. Besides I already have one Hunter so adding another wouldn't cost as much as the three EWTs I'd have to buy!

    So what do you think? Which hunter would I have to buy to babysit me and compliment the #3 Hunter I already have? I can only get one for now.

    I bought a Beall Treen kit last week. It's just to ease me into boxes. I don't like the two-piece lid/stopper combo, it seems kinda clunky to me. After I use up the three that's in the kit, I'm going to try turn a lid without it.

    Paul

  14. #14
    A bit off topic, but given the OP has limited experience this may be pertinent. JKJ’s tool inserts are nearly identical to those once sold by Mike Hosaluk. When I first started turning I made a handle using a Hosaluk insert. Unfortunately, I got a horrendous catch and the lack of a ferrule on the handle and the removal of a substantial amount of the wood for the large hole permitted the handle to explode. The gouge vaulted off the rest and hit the wall and I was left holding the exploded handle in a numb hand.

    Since that time it has been my opinion that every wood handle should have a ferrule to prevent the handle from splitting under severe stress. This may not be as important for experienced turners, but it is my opinion that a ferrule is a safety feature that should be consistently used.

    Having said that, I know JKJ is an experienced finesse turner and probably has never had a problem.

    As I recall, the last time I brought this up was in 2015 and caused a bit of discussion!! Might make a fun read - https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....you-make-yours

    Left click my name for homepage link.

  15. #15
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    That's a good point for the inexperienced and not entirely off topic here.

    Curious (I didn't read the entire other thread): Was just the end of the tool captured by the insert? Were you turning something large? (Glad there was no serious injury!)

    Many people have made and sold this type of insert, sometimes already mounted in a handle. So far I've heard of just this one mishap, which, of course, doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.

    I can't see it being a problem for small work such as the boxes discussed in this thread as well as other small things such as finger tops, spindles, bottle stoppers, goblets, etc. The forces are relatively small even with a catch. For spindle and bowl gouges and tools such as the round-shaft Hunters, the handle can be drilled deeply and the shaft of the gouge sunk deep into the handle which would not only reduce the overhang and catch force on the insert but also provide support against the bottom end of the tool. (I drill a deep hole not the size of the embedded section but just large enough to clear the tool diameter.) A long tool extension on a weak handle used with little skill on large work would be a hazard.

    If concerned about the strength, I would
    - make the handle a larger diameter,
    - make sure the wood was strong (I prefer dogwood, and Geoff Whaling included some other good things about wood choice in the thread referenced),
    - make a longer section to embed deeper into the handle, and/or
    - add a ferrule over the part glued into the wood.

    Some people use such inserts on metal handles made from solid stock or metal pipe. I thought about making an entire handle from aluminum but decided I wouldn't like the feel without covering it with something. My favorite woods for handles are generally strong, as mentioned, dogwood, persimmon, ebony, bubinga, osage orange, black locust, hickory. For small handles I've used cherry and other softer woods.

    JKJ

    Quote Originally Posted by John Keeton View Post
    A bit off topic, but given the OP has limited experience this may be pertinent. JKJ’s tool inserts are nearly identical to those once sold by Mike Hosaluk. When I first started turning I made a handle using a Hosaluk insert. Unfortunately, I got a horrendous catch and the lack of a ferrule on the handle and the removal of a substantial amount of the wood for the large hole permitted the handle to explode. The gouge vaulted off the rest and hit the wall and I was left holding the exploded handle in a numb hand.

    Since that time it has been my opinion that every wood handle should have a ferrule to prevent the handle from splitting under severe stress. This may not be as important for experienced turners, but it is my opinion that a ferrule is a safety feature that should be consistently used.

    Having said that, I know JKJ is an experienced finesse turner and probably has never had a problem.

    As I recall, the last time I brought this up was in 2015 and caused a bit of discussion!! Might make a fun read - https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....you-make-yours

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