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Thread: Big table....big boards...

  1. #46
    who in their right mind would pay for quarter sawn walnut? Flat sawn FAS is like buying bars of gold. Makes zero sense
    Choosing a grain orientation is a function of aesthetics, budget, availability, and function. It's context dependent. I have purchased vertical grain walnut before as has a respected chair maker I know.

    All generalizations are bad.

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Prashun Patel View Post
    Choosing a grain orientation is a function of aesthetics, budget, availability, and function. It's context dependent. I have purchased vertical grain walnut before as has a respected chair maker I know.

    All generalizations are bad.
    That was why I said as it pertains to the thread ;-). I know for us at least the highest price sources for Walnut we have available, none even offer quarter sawn. Your basically ordering FAS in a large enough quantity to sort the material you need and hopefully have a use for the 3-4X extra you have to buy to get the material needed. We just did a Walnut job and brought in 4x the 6/4 we needed and barely got the prime material we needed for the job.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  3. #48
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    I can't help you with the jointer but I have an idea for the planer. Turn it around. A 12" planer is way undersized for running a board that big through but have you considered keeping the board stationary and letting the planer move? put your planer on a mobile base and put the board on a series of supports that you can quickly remove and replace. Start the planer at one end and quickly put a support in right behind it. Then, as the planer advances through the board, keep removing supports ahead and replacing them behind.

    This isn't my idea. Years ago, in FWW, I saw an article about a guy who had to bandsaw some 30' bent lamination beams in Hilton Head. He solved the problem by building a sort of hovercraft base for his bandsaw and piloting it through the wood. I remember it because my very wealth cousin likes to show off the 30' bent lamination beams in his house in Hilton Head.

  4. #49
    Interesting...why an end mill vs a standard router but?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Rosner View Post
    Interesting...why an end mill vs a standard router but?
    Some "end mills" are "standard router bits"...it's just a term most often associated with spiral cutters with one or more flutes and comes from the metal working world. The advantage of an end-mill of the correct configuration (or insert cutter) for surfacing material is that they are designed to remove the chips and cut with a shearing action which leaves a clean surface. A strait router cutter can do this pretty clean, too, but it may not be as effective.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Rosner View Post
    Interesting...why an end mill vs a standard router but?
    In addition to Jim's excellent answer, you can buy straight 1/2" spiral upcut end mills in greater lengths than router bits.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    That was why I said as it pertains to the thread ;-). I know for us at least the highest price sources for Walnut we have available, none even offer quarter sawn. Your basically ordering FAS in a large enough quantity to sort the material you need and hopefully have a use for the 3-4X extra you have to buy to get the material needed. We just did a Walnut job and brought in 4x the 6/4 we needed and barely got the prime material we needed for the job.
    Mark, it’s unlikely that you will get much of any QS in FAS packs. The sawyer continuously turns the log looking for a clear cut until it’s gone. It produces a higher yield than through cutting. If you use someone who through cuts their logs than you will get a fairly large amount of Rift and QS.

    One is my local yards orders FAS packs and sorts out the clear QS boards, they are typically 1 board in 4000 BF for him.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Mark, it’s unlikely that you will get much of any QS in FAS packs. The sawyer continuously turns the log looking for a clear cut until it’s gone. It produces a higher yield than through cutting. If you use someone who through cuts their logs than you will get a fairly large amount of Rift and QS.

    One is my local yards orders FAS packs and sorts out the clear QS boards, they are typically 1 board in 4000 BF for him.
    Right, no disagreement there. Id say in this last pack we were lucky to have a half dozen four sided boards, no sap, I never even looked for QS. I didnt mean to imply that anyone would buy FAS to cull quarter sawn material out of the pack. My point was that quarter sawn Walnut just isnt a cut commonly in demand on the commodity market which is why you just dont see it listed in most sheets even from the highest priced suppliers.

    When you get into through-sawn, flitch, boule, your into the uber boutique market where the work pays for it (hopefully) and thats an entirely different world than FAS and under for day to day work. Sadly with Walnut I cant imagine buying anything under FAS because you struggle to get usable material with FAS.

    Ive rarely ever sawn boules off the mill simply due to the waste and having to saw everything oversize even with flipping the log. When you see someone flat-saw on a bed style mill its not uncommon for the boards to be left heavily oversize because they will be thick ends, thin middle, or vice versa because the log is moving the entire time the tension isnt being dealt with. That movement is more difficult to accommodate when your not rolling a cant and cutting for grade. Boutique work makes use of, and accounts for, all that loss and waste from through sawing. Making day to day items, furniture, drawer boxes, etc, doesnt. Doors, high end furniture, high dollar interiors, sure.

    Im no sawyer but the sawing for grade and the sawyer rolling the cant is more an issue of cutting for yield and grade. Not just boards, but addressing the tension that is in every tree and rolling the cant allows you to cut that tension out and keep your boards coming off the mill more consistent in thickness, bow, crook, etc.. The cant may yield a bunch of wide boards but if you dont do a good job addressing the tension they will all be thick/thin, crook'd, and so on so your better off losing some of that width and get better boards. Of course if your going for QS then thats what it has to be.

    Then you add in a different grading standard and its a real nightmare lol.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  9. #54
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    Mark,

    I bought a batch recently from Horizon. They provided QS and rift sections 7-9” wide, 8-10’ near completely clear and straight for less than I would pay locally for FAS.

    Locally this kind of thing is impossible to get unless I’m buying 12/4 rift cut slabs but I never know if their is some void or knot or other junk below the surface when I resaw for parts.

    Often enough I’d rather just use pattern grade mahogany for the best projects. I managed all of the parts for two benches recently from one slab, resawn with practically zero waste.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 02-23-2019 at 12:36 PM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Mark,

    I bought a batch recently from Horizon. They provided QS and rift sections 7-9” wide, 8-10’ near completely clear and straight for less than I would pay locally for FAS.

    Locally this kind of thing is impossible to get unless I’m buying 12/4 rift cut slabs but I never know if their is some void or knot or other junk below the surface when I resaw for parts.

    Often enough I’d rather just use pattern grade mahogany for the best projects. I managed all of the parts for two benches recently from one slab, resawn with practically zero waste.
    Just for fun what do you pay for FAS Walnut? Im always interested in comparing numbers. This last pack we brought in was a half pack of 6/4 and we paid 5.40

    **Edit** I just pulled up our last numbers on 4/4 FAS, steamed, packs in varied lengths up to 12', some packs mixed/randoms, 4.22
    Last edited by Mark Bolton; 02-23-2019 at 1:41 PM.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  11. #56
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    I pay more for FAS than I do for QS becuase im buying from retail suppliers.

    $9/BF for QS steamed wide. $7.5 for unsteamed QS

    $10~ for FAS.

    So, I’ve moved toward using moderate quantities of QS and no longer buying FAS.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  12. #57
    When you are building high quality product it is easy to rationalize buying premium grade materials. I have been paying upwards of $30/ bd ft for teak, which I hand pick for grain and straightness. Usually I am able to mill any flat grain material into narrower vertical grain.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by andy bessette View Post
    When you are building high quality product it is easy to rationalize buying premium grade materials. I have been paying upwards of $30/ bd ft for teak, which I hand pick for grain and straightness. Usually I am able to mill any flat grain material into narrower vertical grain.
    Again, I dont disagree at all. We tend to bring in material at a grade far higher than larger shops would who sort in-house and have a use for lower grade or the room to inventory it and turn it later for a profit. We are space limited so I dont often have the abilty to bring in lower grade packs and cull out higher grade material. I tend to bring in the highest grade material I can afford (usually FAS) so that (other than Walnut) every board comes straight out of the pack an into the job. We will set aside really juicy stuff (figure) to save if we can. We do bring in a bunch of hard Maple in a grade that allows for a ton of sorting and downstream profit but its still rare.

    There is no doubt, if you dont have the room, the budget, ability, to deal with the cull you buy the higher grade. And If I were asked to build some highly figured Walnut something or another we'd be sourcing material 4x the price.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

  14. #59
    Below is the dry fit of my 10/4 walnut boards that I've planed down to about 2". I never asked the Amish guy i got them from what the quality was but as far as i can tell this is some premium flat sawn stuff. I paid about $9.5/bd-ft and curious how this compares quality wise since I've heard Walnut quality is tough to come by. Safe to say these are FAS? I had minimal twist and boards were pretty straight...

    IMG_0643.jpg

  15. #60
    You can Google the NHLA grading rules and look specifically for walnut as the standard FAS doesnt apply. It's a difficult read but makes sense after a bit
    Your boards definitely look like the would qualify for FAS but it's hard to say. Checks, open knot etc. but the width and amount of sap look good. Price doenst seem bad either if you were able to buy the amount you needed and see/sort before buying.
    Sometimes I just want to look at pretty pictures,... Thats when I go to the Turners Forum

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