Contributor
I use type II mostly & buy it in gallon jugs. I have had to throw the last bit out a couple of times, but 1 gallon is about the same price as 1/2 a gallon purchased in the smaller bottles. If stored in a cool, dark temperature stable spot it will last a lot more than a year. I've had it last over 3 years & not go bad.
Interesting that this has spawned so much conversation. What a great thread. Obviously there are other forms of glue but, you were asking about TB-III. You found the fundamental data that properly used, PVA is stronger than the wood itself. After the adhesive qualities things become more subjective with woodworkers often favoring different glues for the same task for different reasons.
As to trying to save money on glue, I will use just a portion of a 16 oz bottle making something like a chest of drawers or a hutch. That is, I have no need to have a gallon of glue on hand at any given time. Your ease of access to the product you prefer or your environmental situation may effect that choice.
After having tossed excess glue in larger containers due to separation failure (the glue would not re-emulsify) I just started buying 16 or 32 oz bottles, whatever was handy or on sale at the time I was running low. I decant the glue into Glu-bots and/or a glue well depending on what I am doing and cannot remember the last time I had to throw glue out. Your consumption rate will alter your purchasing decisions but, I would start with 16 oz bottles and see how it goes.
Last edited by glenn bradley; 02-12-2019 at 9:48 AM.
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".
– Samuel Butler
Contributor
I use TB III in the shop because:
-It has a slightly longer open time than TB II,
-It blends better color wise with the woods that I use
-I occasionally build pieces that require a certain amount of water resistance and I feel better about using TB III vs I or II. (I like things that make me feel good, even if it's allegedly hype)
-I only need one type of PVA glue in the shop
-It still works well down to about 45 degrees.
There may be better adhesives for any/all of the above but TB III covers these bases pretty well and I buy and use between 2 and 3 gal/yr. I have tested every glue I've used by building a cabinet door frame, sans panel, using both alder and hickory, two of my most commonly used woods. After a couple days I tweak the door diagonally until failure. For every one I've tested the wood has failed before the joint, usually with a long shard of long grain still glued to end grain. I've performed these tests all within the last 3 yrs using TB I, II and III.
While TB III is the only PVA glue I have in my shop I also regularly use CA, epoxy and polyurethane depending on application.
These are materials and techniques that work for me, in my shop. YMMV, as it invariably does, depending on your techniques, materials used and intended purpose. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Contributor
You should not assume epoxy is a bullet proof solution for all exterior applications. I thought so, too, until someone on another forum pointed out that most epoxies lose significant strength at high temperature. West Systems data shows this to be true. I'm not saying failure will be an automatic consequence, only that applications where temperature is a concern require careful consideration of which glue will work best. For gluing up exterior doors I'm still using epoxy, but I'm looking for a better alternative that still has such long open time and user friendly properties.Originally Posted by Patrick Kane
John
Contributor
So that is where that stain on my pants came from....I like regular Titebond because it washes out of my pants, which is where I wipe my finger after spreading the glue
Mark McFarlane
Contributor
Brian, I've had at least 2 seam failures with PVA cold press glues on shop sawn veneer laminated to BB plywood. Both were with Better Bond and both were with 1/16" rift sawn white oak. When I talked with Joe Woodworker about it he told me that it was not recommended for 1/16" shop sawn veneer. At that time, there was no mention of that potential problem on his website; I believe there now is. After those reputation damaging incidents I switched to Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue or epoxy and have had no repeats. Perhaps Titebond works better than Better Bond on shop sawn veneer, or perhaps your veneer is substantially thinner than 1/16". I'm happy you've had no problems, but my experience suggests PVA glues are not reliable enough for my needs.
John
Contributor
This is when your lifestyle leads to desperation.
Member
I use old brown glue...only tried LHG a couple of times, and did not see any difference from OBG. They are more expensive than PVA, and so I use them sparingly for complex glue-ups.
Simon
Contributor
Titebond Original is the glue I have used for almost 30 years without any issues. However, a project might call for a different glue. Projects that will see high humidity or water will require two-part epoxy or Titbond III. If a long open time is needed, I like to use Titebond Extend and if I need very long open time, I'll use liquid hide glue. I have never used a vacuum press, but I read that Urea Formaldehyde or Resorcinol are the glues of choice.
Also, I'm of the belief that if you are building an heirloom piece that is to last generations, hide glue should be used for joints that could fail from strain and age to allow for proper future repairs.
By the way, I really dislike Titebond III because it can't be washed out of clothing.
Contributor
Another special glue requirement is gap-filling needs which favor epoxy and UF and then there's melamine which I like to use Roo [melamine] glue, incredible stuff.
Contributor
It's a rounding error for you but in % terms, it's much more than that for Franklin.
Just to join the cynics for moment - Imagine the CEO of Franklin needs to juice the bottom line in some way with little or no increase in costs. So he/she makes some non-material change to the formulation of any of their PVA glues, maybe just the color, and calls it TB IV Extreme or Super-Ultimate. Charge about 20% more for it, only a few bucks per gallon. Would the power of marketing make people automatically buy it? Because II has got to be better than I, thus III must be better than II so of course......
Just making a hypothetical point about marketing, not meaning to paint the CEO of Franklin as nefarious. And I'm not disputing that there are differences in the characteristics of some of these glues. But it's always a valid question for the consumer to ask "better in what way, and better for whom"?
Last edited by Edwin Santos; 02-12-2019 at 12:20 PM.
Contributor
The main issue is its perfectly fine to use a single glue by default if your work is somewhat standardized and your default glue fits your standardized workflow whether it be hobby or full time shop. The point is if you default to TBIII, or any glue for that matter, and do varied work, your going to wind up getting bit and buying back a job (i.e. having to re-make an entire job for yourself or someone else for free, give the customer their money back, or defend yourself in a lawsuit) because of complacency. Run TBIII on a job where creep or any other number of standard failures for that glue bites you in the butt... and your sunk. Just as stated with epoxy for exterior work coupled with heat, or TBIII coupled with heat, is a guaranteed failure. I dont care what anyone says about PVA and creep. They will all creep at some point. It most certainly comes down to a perfectly fitted joint, with perfectly selected material, will show less problems. But we all operate in the real world. And when it rears its head (TBIII) it will never be at an opportune time.
I understand fully the generic question is for a hobby level shop that does fairly average work, do they need to inventory 19 different glue types. The answer is no. Straight titebond (original) would be the default for day in and day out work. Maybe TBII if you are willing to lose a little bit of strength (marginally measurable). And you bring in the exterior/water resistant glue of choice as needed based on the project. We cant keep PU glue in the shop (gorilla glue). A brand new bottle will be deader than a hammer in a month or two unopened. An open bottle, days or a week or two and its in the trash. You bring in what you need for the job, if there is any left it may go on the shelf, it may go in the trash.
We buy TB original in gallons and super in pails. Gallons we squeeze all the air out when filling bench bottles and put the cap on. Pails if we will be slow for a while we will push some poly paint masking film down in the bucket to keep the air off the top so it doesnt skin but thats rare.
Assembling cabinet doors with TBIII and cope and stick joints telegraphing through a pigmented finish is the dead indicator that its not a great glue for all applications. Some creep in a cutting board, meh.. still sucks but..., glue line movement/failure, finish failure, with TBIII means it will never be in my shop. Too many better alternatives. Sure would be nice to have a single go-to but I can break TBIII joints far too easy that are much stronger with Original. Now glue up a couple scraps and toss them outside for a couple weeks in the rain, snow, sun.
Last edited by Mark Bolton; 02-12-2019 at 3:04 PM.
Contributor
Thats been the case, I find Titebond II pretty reliable. I’ve had the occasional partial delamination (lifted corners) In stressed situations where they were pulled back in an assembly, but I blame myself for that rather than the glue. Outside of that I haven’t experienced massive failures. It’s stronger than pva cold press glue. Franklin told me that PVA cold press was formulated to minimize bleed through, rather than maximize bond strength. I’m rarely veneering anything thin enough to concern myself with bleed through.
I walked through the kitchen I made last year using mainly titebond II and III to glue panels, all doing fine so far and so now I’ve seen a full year’s humidity swing on them. Those veneers were all left at .110”thickness.
I saw your comments in prior threads about that with shop sawn veneers and so I wanted to move onto something other than better bond, but actually I had no trouble with that either.
I have had entire sheets delaminate with woodweld, and by that point I had already a few years of veneering experience and had been vacuum pressing for a few years at least. I may try unibond still for a harder bond, but I’ve not had much reason to change.
Mainly I laminate quartersawn material.
Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 02-12-2019 at 2:01 PM.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
Member
I'm with Derek on this. Hide glue rocks. On fine furniture it's the way to go, unless you need something for its properties associated with water, in which case I use TB II as the default (I don't know why, I just always have.) Sometimes you don't even need that, such as with some interlocking joints, or draw-bored M&T. The ultimate in repairability! Take that, you guys who get comebacks.
Member
If you get comebacks (or are concerned about them,) why aren't you using hide glue?
Last edited by Doug Dawson; 02-12-2019 at 2:08 PM.
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