What has happened at Popular Woodworking magazine?

[steven c newman]

I stopped using PayPal long ago...after my account was hacked....

[Tony Zaffuto]

I stopped using PayPal long ago...after my account was hacked....

You can use PayPal as a guest, without logging in.

[Keith Outten]

This isn't the Federal Government where some are treated differently than others, there is no ruling class here.

Over the years I have banned a lot of people and many of them were shining stars in the woodworking field who felt that the rules didn't apply to them because they were special. Most of these people didn't deserve to be here, they were disrespectful and some could not resist using The Creek to advertise their services. The only person I regret eliminating his access here was a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient. To this day I wish that I could have found a way to protect his access but his violation was about the worst behavior I have ever seen here. There are often facts that you will never know about a variety of infractions, most involve extremely disrespectful comments made in either email or private messages to me or one of our Moderators. If I visited your shop and cursed you or your wife like a construction worker or made insane demands you would throw me out on my behind in an instant. That's what I would deserve and that's what I do when this happens here.

My wife answers a certain percentage of email that we receive via the link at the bottom of every page. Not one of you would believe how nasty these email messages can get. Many who have been banned here go to other woodworking forums and post vulgar and insulting comments about me, nothing new here its been happening for many years and my skin has gotten pretty thick. I never allow anyone to be disrespectful towards me in my own house and I am especially quick on the draw when they use my services for free, disrespect our Moderators or are unfriendly to anyone here.

For all of the hours I spend working behind the scenes seven days a week for over 16 years I don't deserve to be harassed, abused or threatened but it happens all to frequently. In spite of the downside I am still here honoring a promise I made in 2005 that I would keep The Creek online as long as I have the support of this Community. If the majority here cannot support SawMill Creek for any reason that's fine with me but don't bash me when its gone. I have owned a server on the Internet continuously since 1995 and the only reason I didn't shut down this server in 2003 when I shut down Hampton Roads Online was because almost everyone here at the time asked me to continue.

I know where we have been, you tell me where we are going. If we have to shutdown so be it, I have kept my promise to all of you and I'm proud of what we have accomplished.
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[Edwin Santos]

This isn't the Federal Government where some are treated differently than others, there is no ruling class here.

I thought there was a strict no politics rule here! Unless of course it doesn't apply to the ruling class .

Don't get mad please, just a little friendly irony jest.

I've enjoyed this forum, learned some good things. Thank you for keeping it going thus far. Whatever you choose to do, it's your prerogative. I just hope you'll make your decision soon and get on with it.

BTW, I must not have banner ads turned off because I see them at the top of the page. One that keeps coming up is Lee Valley free shipping Feburary 6-20. Today is March 15th so maybe that one needs to be deleted?

[Pete Taran]

Keith,

I'm certainly sympathetic to your plight as no one should take a vow of poverty to provide a service that others enjoy. Having said that, I think the idea to ban anyone without paying is fraught with peril.

I like to think of online forums like bee hives. In a beehive, there is a bee keeper who pays for the pine box that the bees live it. He puts it out in the field, and then buys a starter colony. Once that's in place, he sits back and the bees go forth and collect pollen and bring it back to the hive. This continues and it is largely the bees who do the work and bring back the pollen. The beekeeper of course has to maintain the hive, but the maintenance is far less than the value the bees bring. The bees labor is free.

In this scenario, all the forum users are the bees. They share ideas, thoughts, images, techniques, etc. They make up the community. What you are advocating is to close the entrance to the hive and keep the bees already inside from mingling with the outside world. Bees not willing to pay to get into the hive will get turned away. In nature, what would happen is the non paying bees will find a new hive, and the paying bees would soon start to cannibalize each other until the last one dies of starvation. I posit that this is what will happen to SMC should you do down the pay to be a member road.

It doesn't have to be that way however. I articulated to you in private many ideas which you could use to accomplish payment for the server. I belong to other forums where they run an annual drive to pay for the server and bandwidth. A large thermometer is at the top of every forum page. A group half the size of SMC donates $10,000 in a space of a few days. Real donations in the bank, not just promises. No reason why that couldn't work here. People are generous when asked. People are resentful when taxed.

Further, it would seem you could loosen the reigns of the no commerce clause on SMC. I belong to other forums where for a $100/year, you can be a vendor sponsor and put a single text line in your signature advertising your website. No pictures, just text and a hyperlink. It's not at all onerous and not an nuisance for anyone. You can click it if you are interested, you can ignore it if you want. That's easily another $10-20,000 annually.

I also think that you could rethink the banner strategy. I use BRAVE for my browser, and the way the other forum has implemented their banner ads it is immune to ad blockers. Again, I don't think it is that onerous to see a banner at the top of each page. Advertisers pay a lot annually to be there, and since each banner is an active link, you have the power to demonstrate value to the folks footing the bill. The forum I have in mind uses the same exact software that you do.

I know that your vision is to keep SMC ad and commerce free, but in a world where stuff costs money, and people are not willing to part with that money, something has to change. I don't think most would be bothered by any of those ideas.

At the end of the day, you are in charge, and you make the rules. I just think there are a lot of ways to get what you want while remaining open and free.

With respect,

Pete

PS. I put my money where my mouth is, I have been a contributor since the beginning, and not at the $6/year rate.

[Simon MacGowen]

I like to think of online forums like bee hives.

Pete

PS. I put my money where my mouth is, I have been a contributor since the beginning, and not at the $6/year rate.

I like your analogy, and I also like your business acumen.

Simon

[Mark Rainey]

Ken, I thank you for running this forum. It is informative and valuable. Now is the time to see if the community values each other. I will pay the meager dues to participate.

[Mike Brady]

I do understand the need for revenue in maintaining web content. It is a bit of a stretch to justify why those who create the content of a forum would have to pay for the privilege. That is what advertisers are for. Certainly there are tool companies that have benefited tremendously from the exposure and readership of this forum. A few of them personally contribute to the content, and I assume make financial contributions as well.

I participate in several hobby forums. One of them is attempting to fund itself through ongoing (Go fund me-type) contributions. In that particular case there is content prepared by the editor and a fair amount of related advertising. It is a major part of his income (although he lives in NYC!) He is lamenting that he may have to discontinue. Here you are getting 99% amateur opinions. Is there value to that? If the potential advertisers who literally make their living from the people who participate here don't see enough value in it to give back, then perhaps it time for us all to move on.

[Brian Holcombe]

I think Pete comes up with some excellent points.

I really enjoy participating here, I learn a lot and I've met a lot of great people because of it. I'd like to see it continue.

[Mel Fulks]

I think the " 99 percent amateur opinion " assessment is way off. High percentage of business owners, tradesmen , and
artists post here. And some of the true amateurs post pics of complicated period furniture.

[Kurt Cady]

Keith,

I like to think of online forums like bee hives.

With respect,

Pete

PS. I put my money where my mouth is, I have been a contributor since the beginning, and not at the $6/year rate.

Seconded! All great ideas.

I know I wouldn’t mind in the least seeing a banner ad as a Contributor, seeing signature lines, or any of the other ideas thrown out

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have no issue with banner ads and appreciate SMC, As the site is Keith's, it is his decision to what he sees fit. Those of us that enjoy the privilege of visiting here, should help support the costs as we see fit.

[Jerry Olexa]

Keith, all good suggestions..
I have a high regard and respect for this SMC forum and would like to see it continued forever....I understand the need for revenue to support it...
Price rises are a normal part of our daily lives...I can understand the need here and would happily continue as a contributor at a higher rate or as an annual separate contribution.
Also a simple request for funds/contribution to keep the ship afloat and continue the forum would seem to me reasonable and appropiate....I would participate in that as needed.
I also appreciate the effort that is made to maintain this site and feel, a contribution occassionally by us is in order.
Thank you for your past efforts as well as this one.

[Edwin Santos]

I think the " 99 percent amateur opinion " assessment is way off. High percentage of business owners, tradesmen , and
artists post here. And some of the true amateurs post pics of complicated period furniture.

True, but unless I missed the part where Keith solicited everyone's advice, it may not matter what the qualifications of the well intended authors are. As they say, unsolicited advice usually falls on deaf ears. Even if presented as artfully as Pete's.

On a personal note I have often asked Members here what they think that I owe them or what services they think I am obligated to provide for free from my family budget or profits my sign business.

I have no intention to argue with anyone concerning the changes we are facing, the situation is your doing not mine. The majority here want free service and they block my efforts to provide them.

It's hard to get inside another person's head, especially through internet dialogue. If by chance, Keith feels like a person both unappreciated and antagonized despite countless hours invested into a thankless task that primarily benefits everyone else in this community, then he may not have much appetite for the opinions of what he might perceive as backseat drivers who have never walked a step in his shoes. Not saying I agree or even have an opinion on this viewpoint. Just saying that additional advice, critique and opinions may not be serving any productive purpose.
Edwin

[Graham Haydon]

I've just set up a $2.00 monthly contribution. I value the forum a great deal and read with interest contributions from a variety of people. Although I am happy to contribute, I fear that it will create a barrier for new people joining. Keith, I can appreciate it is difficult to find a way to make this work but perhaps there is a way using ideas put forward by Pete? However, I appreciate this is your baby and nothing lasts forever. Fingers crossed a solution can be found!