Built in project with large sliding doors

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have a client who is wanting (nearly) floor to ceiling built-ins in a finished basement space. The room is roughly 20'x20' and the proposed design is for 3 out of the 4 walls to be full wall-to-wall built ins (open bookshelves on 1 wall, open storage "cubbies" and a built in entertainment center type area on the other 2 walls.) The desire is for these last 2 walls (not the bookshelf wall) to have sliding doors all the way across that are the same height as the built-ins (which will be about 75-80" tall.) They will be built tight to the ceiling (visually), but "float" about 16" or so off the floor for a variety of reasons. Future flooring replacement, modern aesthetics, vacuuming under, etc.

The material will be a high quality pre-finished ply, likely maple, with solid wood face frames for the bookcase wall, and possibly just solid wood edge banding through out the cubby area, though it may all get solid wood face frames.

I've made sliding doors before with (smaller) furniture sized pieces in a Shoji style, but not with door panels this large (aside from installing pocket doors in residential carpentry work.) I haven't determined width yet, but the overall height is pretty well established at around 6'+.

The nitty gritty of the built in design details are yet to be worked out. The desired style is more modern and the flush door slab look has been talked about as being preferable. Think about Ikea's design sensibilities and you've got a general idea...minimal, modern, sleek, all one wood tone. The clients suggested using some of the same 3/4" pre-finished plywood as the actual sliding doors, but I find myself a bit skeptical about the doors staying flat at that size (they will probably be about the size of a typical passage door (~32" wide x75-80" tall) In this case, the raw ply edges would need to be edge banded with solid wood.

Is the warping / bowing a valid concern that I have? Is there any way that they wouldn't warp? The space is a finished basement that is climate controlled and dehumidified in the summer, for what it's worth.

Clearly, using 3/4" pre-finished plywood with some solid edge banding is easier and less labor than veneering or building proper frame and panel doors, which is likely why the client suggested it, but it just doesn't sit well with me. I've said as much during our initial meeting and left the decision open ended for the moment until I come back with some alternatives.

What about 3/4" MDF core veneered on all 6 sides. I'm not very experienced with veneering, though I have access to good veneering equipment.

I think what I'd prefer as the fabricator / builder is to build a frame and panel style door with solid wood frame and a floating ply panel with a tight reveal (1/16"?) and have it all be in the same plane along the front. You get a lot of that flush look, but also a lot of strength. Whose to say that this construction will be less prone to warping and bowing in the end, though?

Raised panel is not in the running, aesthetically . I personally think that a flat panel with tight reveals could be a really nice look, though I haven't presented it to the clients yet. see this link for what I picture, aesthetically, sans carved handles --> http://www.deanpulver.com/built-in/#/bend-kitch/ Credit to Dean Pulver, who I've seen in FWW magazine over the years, for the inspiration here. This is obviously a kitchen, with different cabinet layout than what I'm working on, but the aesthetics and overall look is very appealing.

What do you guys think? Any experience with large sliding doors like this? Sliding door hardware/tracks or simply wood to wood with grooves and rabbets is another decision to be made, but part of that hinges on ultimate material choice for the doors.

Thanks for any input!

[Jamie Buxton]

Let me get this straight... The doors hang from the ceiling, with that 16" gap below them? Strange, but it's his home.

For hanging doors, use Johnson Hardware hardware (http://johnsonhardware.com/). It is way way better than the home center stuff.

I would not bet on 80"-tall doors hanging flat if they're made from 3/4" plywood. One of the reasons that conventional passage doors are 1 3/8" thick is that the added thickness gives more resistance to warping. I'd counter-propose using standard slab passage doors. They're more likely to come flat to your shop, and more likely to stay flat in service.

[Wayne Lomman]

In my experience, unframed plywood is unreliable in this size. On the other hand, MDF is totally reliable and has never failed for me. Sliding doors are very low stressed and hardware stays attached without any problems. Is veneered MDF a common product where you are? I can buy any veneer I want on MDF and it is all high grade.

Your alternative style inspired by Dean Pulver is a credible alternative. It looks good. It still fits the design brief. How good are your powers of persuasion? The difference in price between this and the veneered MDF may be crucial factor. Also, do you want to do the extra work? They look worth the effort.

Use good quality rollers on the doors. A grooved track is straight forward to make, as is a guide for the top but there is no substitute for really good rollers. Your design will be judged for life the first time the customer finds they can silently move the doors with their little finger. Cheers

[Phillip Mitchell]

Let me get this straight... The doors hang from the ceiling, with that 16" gap below them? Strange, but it's his home.

For hanging doors, use Johnson Hardware hardware (http://johnsonhardware.com/). It is way way better than the home center stuff.

I would not bet on 80"-tall doors hanging flat if they're made from 3/4" plywood. One of the reasons that conventional passage doors are 1 3/8" thick is that the added thickness gives more resistance to warping. I'd counter-propose using standard slab passage doors. They're more likely to come flat to your shop, and more likely to stay flat in service.

Not hanging from the ceiling. There will likely be a top rail type piece of solid stock that is just below the ceiling, then the doors below that with a similar bottom rail of solid stock at the bottom.

Im aware of traditional door design and the thicknesses of doors, etc. Just wondering if anyone has successfully done this method of a 3/4” sheet of prefinished ply. The option of maple / hardwood clad hollow core flush door slabs did come up in our meeting. This seems like a good compromise to me as long as I could source attractive enough grain.

Johnson hardware is ok, but I’ve been spoiled by Hafele sliding door hardware over the years and don’t know if I could go back to Johnson.

Thanks for the reply.

[Phillip Mitchell]

In my experience, unframed plywood is unreliable in this size. On the other hand, MDF is totally reliable and has never failed for me. Sliding doors are very low stressed and hardware stays attached without any problems. Is veneered MDF a common product where you are? I can buy any veneer I want on MDF and it is all high grade.

Your alternative style inspired by Dean Pulver is a credible alternative. It looks good. It still fits the design brief. How good are your powers of persuasion? The difference in price between this and the veneered MDF may be crucial factor. Also, do you want to do the extra work? They look worth the effort.

Use good quality rollers on the doors. A grooved track is straight forward to make, as is a guide for the top but there is no substitute for really good rollers. Your design will be judged for life the first time the customer finds they can silently move the doors with their little finger. Cheers

Thanks Wayne. I’m sure I could source veneered MDF, I just need to do more research. I don’t do built in work regularly enough to have a go to source off the top of my head.

Open to any suggestions from those more experienced concerning suppliers of prefinished hardwood ply and veneered MDF panels. How does a 3/4” MDF panel handle routing, etc for track / roller hardware in the top and bottom edges?

[Ben Abate]

I don’t know if this will help but I’ve built 80” tall MDF doors with solid wood framing around the 4 sides. Used as pocket doors, I know your application is different but still similar. They were actually very similar to the web site you referred to. MDF with sapala veneer and have stayed perfect for yrs. I might hesitate at building them at 3/4” finished thickness unless I was using quarter sawn material for the framing. Even if you choose to veneer over the quarter sawn material I believe you’ll be safe. Personally I would feel better at a 1 1/16” thickness but that adds weight. Also there are some pretty light weight MDF materials available so your door may be able to be a bit thicker.

May i I ask what will the doors roll or slide on? I know you said a track top and bottom but I can’t imagine a wood on wood friction sliding for very long without problems. Possibly I missed something in your explanation, my apologies if I did

[Wayne Lomman]

MDF is ideal for router machining. It's one of the main reasons for its existence. Screws hold well if fixing into the faces. If you want to screw into the edges, it's best to butt glue a solid timber edge to hold the screws. This lasts the life of the furniture without problems. I would expect you to be able to source decent hardware from Hafele, Blum, etc that is exactly what you need to do the job.

In fact, research Euro style cabinet construction as it seems to be called in USA (here it's just cabinet construction).

When looking for hardware, avoid small diameter rollers. You need he doors to feel like a car, not roller skates. Cheers

[Tim Bueler]

My lumber supplier has the ability to make veneered sheets of product they don't normally stock. They do have a 5 sheet minimum. They can apply veneer of choice to cores of plywood, armour-core (sp?) or solid MDF. I don't think I'd worry about an MDF panel in a vertical application in a controlled environment.

Perhaps there's a supplier in your area that can provide the same.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for the replies. Wurth Wood Group is a few hours away and delivers to my area a few times a week. I’m going to pour over their website today to get a better idea of their full offerings.

[Jeff Duncan]

Some good recommendations so far. I would absolutely go with mdf panels for this and have done a lot of that type of work over the years. Buy it veneered and just band the edges. Trying to veneer yourself is a LOT more work and no-one will be able to tell the difference.... well unless your veneer doesn't come out well If you absolutely have to use veneer core for some reason then at the very least use one with the hdf outside layers. This stays flatter than the normal veneer core.... which won't stay flat, sorry but it just doesn't. Oh and another potential benefit is that it seems like the mdf cores get the better veneers these days, at least when I get them.

Sounds like your already on the right track if your getting your door hardware from Hafele. Anything from a box store or lumberyard is likely to be junk. I've been using various Hawa kits for years and have never been let down.... well except that the prices have gotten a bit crazy!

good luck,
JeffD

[Gary Ragatz]

My apologies - this doesn't really address the questions in your original post.

I'm curious to know what a 20-foot wide wall with sliding doors looks like, exactly? You mention 32" wide doors, so will it be something like eight doors arranged in four by-pass layers so that the client will be able to push four doors to each side and expose 14 feet or so in the middle?

Apart from the question of how the doors should be constructed, I'm just having a hard time imagining how this could be a functional and aesthetically pleasing design. I know, the clients should get what they want, but ...

[Phillip Mitchell]

My apologies - this doesn't really address the questions in your original post.

I'm curious to know what a 20-foot wide wall with sliding doors looks like, exactly? You mention 32" wide doors, so will it be something like eight doors arranged in four by-pass layers so that the client will be able to push four doors to each side and expose 14 feet or so in the middle?

Apart from the question of how the doors should be constructed, I'm just having a hard time imagining how this could be a functional and aesthetically pleasing design. I know, the clients should get what they want, but ...

Gary,

Im not totally sure on the their ultimate desires regarding the sliding door details yet. It could be built with full-width, continuous tracks so that what you mentioned would be possible. It could also be built in smaller (5-6’ wide” track lengths is that each door could only slide in front of or behind the door adjacent to it, though that is more limiting in terms of access.

That’s a question I need to bring up pretty soon to the clients as we flesh out the final design. I appreciate you asking it, or for that matter, anyone else asking practical / design questions. I’ve built a lot of different things, but I’m not a seasoned built-in expert so pointing out all the little pitfalls and hang ups won’t hurt my feelings.

[Brian Holcombe]

I’ve built shoji that size, they slide nicely in normal shoji tracks but they’re light, even at 84” x 42”. A panel that size will heavy.

Having tracks, rather than rollers, reduces the chance that the door will warp, considerably. I've not had a shoji screen warp on me...likely that is because they sit housed in a giant batten their entire lives.

[Robert Engel]

Obviously you have to be up front with them about the possibility of the doors warping.

That said, If the ply is flat I wouldn't "expect" them to warp hanging vertically.

I've done a few very large barn doors with ply and used 3/4x3/4 angle iron on the vertical edges to keep everything straight. Maybe you could route a slot/dado in the back of the panel rather than mount on the edge?

[Wayne Lomman]

I'm not quite sure why so many are only considering ply as the door material. Plywood is a great material and has a multitude of uses but this is not one of them. I speak from a lifetime of work in a market where most timer species as well as ply, MDF and chipboard products are all readily available and there is no barrier to choosing the best product for the job. In this case, ply when hung freely like this is unreliable and will most likely distort, so it is not the material for the job. I built an entire office complex of built ins from the best grade of AA marine ply and it still had problems with distortion even on smaller doors. I still took out an architectural award for the job that year but is was hell getting all the doors adjusted so that they were optically perfect.

MDF is far more stable but not of the same structural strength as ply but in this case, structural strength is a minor consideration and stability is a major consideration. MDF is available in any veneer you want. There is a huge range of fittings designed to work to MDF's strengths and work around its limitations. Give me quality timber any day but choice of materials is dictated by the end use. Its a mistake to try and force a design into one material, however good that material may be. Cheers