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Thread: Cleaning filters

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Bartley View Post
    Could cleaning the filters have let the motor run so wide open that it pulled too many amps and over-heated?
    Yikes, what a pain.

    Do you mean running the cyclone with clean filters or cleaning the filters while running it without anything connected to the inlet?

    The cyclone motor pulls the smallest load when all the blast gates are closed - the low pressure inside lets the motor move less air and spin with less effort. The motor uses the most current when it is pulling the most air, such as when the blast gates are open. But even then, the friction from the ducts, fittings, and machine is normally enough to allow the motor to run indefinitely without overheating. A short and large diameter inlet duct not connected to a machine might be a problem.

    My motor gets hot but that's normal. However, I don't remember the temperature but it was well within safe operating temperature. I think the safe operating temperature is in the motor specs. But of course you can't check it now if the motor is not functioning.

    When mounting in a closet some people are concerned about ambient temperature and vent the closet high near the motor. Mine is in a closet and I vent from low near the floor. The closet does get warm after operating for a while but the motor temperature was still OK. For testing a cheap thermocouple reader and probe is perfect, from Amazon and elsewhere.

    The worst thing, as warned against in the manual, is operating the motor with no inlet restriction, i.e., without the inlet duct connected at all. ClearVue and others say to never do this, pointing out it can damage the motor by overheating.

    However, I've never read anything about the need for outlet pressure from the filters. In fact, some people run with an outlet duct vented directly to the outside with no filters.

    JKJ

  2. #17
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    I sure wish i would have measured the temp of the motor when it shut down yesterday. In the old shop the system was in a vented closet and had the filtered air channeled around the motor.....but again, I have no idea exactly how hot it ran. Today I plan to at least figure out why the motor failed. If I have a short in the windings I should see zero resistance, right? In the past my motor failures have been due to bad run capacitors where the failure was clear and the fix easy.

    How exactly do you test a run capacitor?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Bartley View Post
    I sure wish i would have measured the temp of the motor when it shut down yesterday. In the old shop the system was in a vented closet and had the filtered air channeled around the motor.....but again, I have no idea exactly how hot it ran. Today I plan to at least figure out why the motor failed. If I have a short in the windings I should see zero resistance, right? In the past my motor failures have been due to bad run capacitors where the failure was clear and the fix easy.

    How exactly do you test a run capacitor?
    A "short" would be two things touching which might show a reduced resistance with a sensitive meter, not necessarily zero. An "open" or break would have infinite resistance along that path. However, the small motors I've worked on had windings connected in what might seem like complicated ways. I'm certainly NOT a motor expert and have never worked on that type of motor. If you want I can ask my friend Joe who knows everything about motors.

    I've had several run and start motor capacitors fail on various machines. In my case, each failure was obvious by a breach somewhere on the housing through which some internal substance had escaped, and a strongly pungent smell. I have a capacitor tester but if not I would try touching the leads of an ohm meter (set to a high resistance range) to each of the leads of the disconnected capacitor and noting the needle movement as the capacitor charged and discharged. I haven't tried this with an AC capacitor used on motors but have on polarized elecrolytic DC capacitors. It's easier an analog meter - the needle will start low (zero) and move to a higher resistance as the capacitor charges.

    Any motor shop or electrical supply house should have a capacitor for that motor and they are relatively inexpensive. If in doubt I'd might buy one and if it didn't fix it keep it for a spare. One shop I visited had hundreds of different sizes in stock. Unfortunately the didn't have the one I needed for the Jet mini lathe I wanted to put back into use for a class. I had to pull one from another lathe and order one from Jet at exorbitant cost compared to Rikon and other equipment suppliers. (editorial comment) Note that a similar but not exact capacitor will work as long as it is rated for at least the voltage and capacitance - it doesn't have to be the same size unless you want it to fit in the can the old one came out of.

    Another option is simpler but also a lot more work - disconnect the motor and carry it to a motor shop where they can quickly test and repair if needed, likely far less than buying a new motor.

    I don't remember, does the motor have a thermal overload reset button?

    JKJ

  4. #19
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    I haven't been able to located a thermal overload reset. I did take the covers off the capacitors and they look fine. Looks like I'll be taking the system completely apart and taking the motor to the shop. Man, I just got the system up again after two years without it while working out of a temporary shop.

    I've been making a mental list of things that make a motor run hot.......resistance in wiring? Bad bearing making the motor work harder? And in the case of dust collection: too little restriction of the air?

    And now that I'm faced with buying a new motor it begs the question of single or three phase. No capacitors, ramped start up, robust motor......three phase has some benefits, cost not withstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    A "short" would be two things touching which might show a reduced resistance with a sensitive meter, not necessarily zero. An "open" or break would have infinite resistance along that path. However, the small motors I've worked on had windings connected in what might seem like complicated ways. I'm certainly NOT a motor expert and have never worked on that type of motor. If you want I can ask my friend Joe who knows everything about motors.

    I've had several run and start motor capacitors fail on various machines. In my case, each failure was obvious by a breach somewhere on the housing through which some internal substance had escaped, and a strongly pungent smell. I have a capacitor tester but if not I would try touching the leads of an ohm meter (set to a high resistance range) to each of the leads of the disconnected capacitor and noting the needle movement as the capacitor charged and discharged. I haven't tried this with an AC capacitor used on motors but have on polarized elecrolytic DC capacitors. It's easier an analog meter - the needle will start low (zero) and move to a higher resistance as the capacitor charges.

    Any motor shop or electrical supply house should have a capacitor for that motor and they are relatively inexpensive. If in doubt I'd might buy one and if it didn't fix it keep it for a spare. One shop I visited had hundreds of different sizes in stock. Unfortunately the didn't have the one I needed for the Jet mini lathe I wanted to put back into use for a class. I had to pull one from another lathe and order one from Jet at exorbitant cost compared to Rikon and other equipment suppliers. (editorial comment) Note that a similar but not exact capacitor will work as long as it is rated for at least the voltage and capacitance - it doesn't have to be the same size unless you want it to fit in the can the old one came out of.

    Another option is simpler but also a lot more work - disconnect the motor and carry it to a motor shop where they can quickly test and repair if needed, likely far less than buying a new motor.

    I don't remember, does the motor have a thermal overload reset button?

    JKJ

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Bartley View Post
    I haven't been able to located a thermal overload reset. I did take the covers off the capacitors and they look fine. Looks like I'll be taking the system completely apart and taking the motor to the shop. Man, I just got the system up again after two years without it while working out of a temporary shop.

    I've been making a mental list of things that make a motor run hot.......resistance in wiring? Bad bearing making the motor work harder? And in the case of dust collection: too little restriction of the air?

    And now that I'm faced with buying a new motor it begs the question of single or three phase. No capacitors, ramped start up, robust motor......three phase has some benefits, cost not withstanding.
    A bad bearing would probably make noise. I wrote my thoughts about the air restriction on the inlet and the outlet (to filters) earlier. I'm guessing your motor can be repaired far cheaper than buying a new motor, even if it has to be rewound. Ask the motor repair shop. Three phase is a joy and inexpensive if you have 3-phase power in the shop. If not, it can be a huge expense if you buy new, big VFD or phase converter. A three-phase system may be harder to sell in the future.


    When you get running put a clamp on amp meter on the leads, individually, perhaps easiest in the breaker box. Also, measure the voltage at the breaker box and close to the motor before and during running. Clamp-on amperage and voltage meters are not expensive if you don't have one. If you don't know how to do all this safely get some help or hire a good equipment electrician.

    If there is too much distance or the wire size is too small the voltage will drop too much. The problem with that is the motor will continue to try to generate the same amount of power by drawing even more current. This can cause the wires to heat up, further increasing the resistance and reducing the voltage causing the motor to draw even more current.... This is a SURE way to burn up a motor! A brother-in-law burned up at least four well pumps before he learned how to do it right.

    You can put the wire size and length of the run into an on-line voltage drop calculator and see what the theoretical drop would be. I personally tend to oversize wiring. The distance from my shop breaker box to a sub-panel where I feed the 5hp cyclone and the air compressor is a bit over 40'. I ran big wire (#1) to the shop and #6 to the sub-panel then I think #8 from there to the two machines. I have very little voltage drop.

    Also, of course, measure the temperature on the outside of the motor. I use this dual-channel thermocouple reader to measure temperature - probes can be taped to the motor. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EUB6BM The price is not too bad but there are cheaper readers, $20 or so.

    I also use this Fluke IR non-contact thermometer for quick temperature readings, works well on black motor housings, but not as cheap: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0089N2ZH6

    I watched the voltage and amperage when testing my cyclone installation. There was a big difference in the current draw when a blast gates to my bandsaw (at the end 40' of 6" duct) was open and when it was closed. I can't remember the numbers on the current and temperature but if you want ask when you are ready to run and I'll be glad to measure again.


    JKJ

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Day View Post
    Jealous. Indiana has a lot more corn fields than mountains. Okay, lots of corn fields and no mountains.
    Someone did a study comparing the topography of my home state of Kansas with that of a pancake. They determined that if you were to shave off the highest point of Kansas (Mt. Sunflower), it would indeed be flatter than a pancake.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Christensen View Post
    This is cute. Would it have any value?

  8. #23
    Yes but doesn't have data logging. It will tell you what the particle counts are as they happen just the same as looking at a Dylos. It uses the same sensors as some of the units the article comparing models that I linked to later in the thread.

  9. #24
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    A Huanyang 5hp VFD can be had for $190 on eBay, or even Amazon I think. FYI

  10. #25
    The Aussies put a Powtran VFD on their machines. The Aussie ClearVue site has a download on how to program it for the CV cyclone. You can buy them direct or through Alibaba maybe eBay etc too but I've never looked there. Mine a year and a half ago was $170 plus about $80 for shipping by UPS I think. I've posted the model number here before that we need.

    One of the guys on the Aussie forum has over a dozen VFD's in his shop and used to buy Huanyangs until he tried a Powtran. He opened it up and compared it to the same size Huanyang. Said it was better built with heavier input/output connections, fan, etc.

    If you go the VFD route it's up to you as to which one you buy.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Christensen View Post
    ...Powtran VFD ... I've posted the model number here before that we need.
    Here is an earlier message about this:
    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....69#post2822869

  12. #27
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    I'm seriously thinking of going the VFD/3-phase route. I really like the idea of ramping up the start. But a question for those with VFD experience: can a VFD start a motor more than 5-6 times an hour? With the single phase cap run motors they say not to start more than 5-6 times an hour.

    The other option would be to skip the VFD altogether as I have 3 phase in the shop. The only issue with that is my 3 phase can only deliver 35 amps at a time so I'd be pushing the limits of that system with two 5 hp motors running. Of course skipping the VFD means no ramp up start.

    Once I get the motor down I plan to visit the motor shop. Unfortunately that may have to wait for the weekend: I have work to do!

  13. #28
    The VFD powered motor can be stopped and started as much as you like because the soft start prevents that inrush of electricity that makes the motor heat up.

    You can also powered down to a lower speed and then power back up to full speed if you want to scavenge the air between operations. You'll have to go to the VFD and use the knob or the presets to do that though.

    The Powtran has a control panel that can be removed and a cable attached to separate it 6' from the VFD for convenience. VFD in the room next to the shop for instance. Other brands do the same.

  14. #29
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    Peter, can you recommend a good source for the Powtran VFDs? I bought a different brand for one of my lathes but I'm not all that thrilled with it.

    JKJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Christensen View Post
    The VFD powered motor can be stopped and started as much as you like because the soft start prevents that inrush of electricity that makes the motor heat up.

    You can also powered down to a lower speed and then power back up to full speed if you want to scavenge the air between operations. You'll have to go to the VFD and use the knob or the presets to do that though.

    The Powtran has a control panel that can be removed and a cable attached to separate it 6' from the VFD for convenience. VFD in the room next to the shop for instance. Other brands do the same.

  15. #30
    I bought it through Alibaba but I found out since that you can buy direct from them and possibly have a little room to haggle. They took $25 off the shipping when I asked. Let your credit card company know you are making the purchase so they don't hold it up. However you contact them they will help you chose the right one for your application and answer any questions.

    http://powtran.com/en-us/index.aspx

    https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search...d+motor+drives

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