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Thread: adjustable groovers for shapers-which ones ?

  1. #1
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    adjustable groovers for shapers-which ones ?

    What I have figured out. Most I have seen have the two part design with "registration pins" in the center section where one installs shims to vary the thickness. They all seem about the same. Question is any brand noticeably better than others ? Do most of these use generic insert cutters available at numerous sources ?The last aspect of this equation is the thickness range of the tool. I have pretty much decided that a 5or8mm to 12mm and a 12mm to 24mm are the two ranges that will probably end up in my arsenal. Which one would you purchase first ? Are these the right size ranges to cover most uses ? I will be using these for commercial work as well as furniture etc. Presently I am looking at Amana ,anyone with suggestions on which tools to look at or other brands entirely please fill me in. Thanks Mike.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kees View Post
    What I have figured out. Most I have seen have the two part design with "registration pins" in the center section where one installs shims to vary the thickness. They all seem about the same. Question is any brand noticeably better than others ? Do most of these use generic insert cutters available at numerous sources ?The last aspect of this equation is the thickness range of the tool. I have pretty much decided that a 5or8mm to 12mm and a 12mm to 24mm are the two ranges that will probably end up in my arsenal. Which one would you purchase first ? Are these the right size ranges to cover most uses ? I will be using these for commercial work as well as furniture etc. Presently I am looking at Amana ,anyone with suggestions on which tools to look at or other brands entirely please fill me in. Thanks Mike.
    Hi Mike, one thing to consider is whether or not the diameter matters to you. Sometimes tooling can be stacked to work well together if the diameters are complimentary. Most manufacturers use common sizes for inserts, but I just buy a few extras with the initial purchase and haven't run out yet because they last so long!

    I think with all manufacturers, the smallest (4-7.5mm range) is the most expensive and when I did my comparison shopping a couple of years ago it was in the 8 - 24mm range and comparing Rangate to Felder to Amana to Whitehill, Whitehill was the least expensive, and sometimes by a large margin. They are industrial grade kit, but I think the difference is that they're available direct from the manufacturer where the others don't make all their tooling and/or sell through retailers over here. Also in the case of Whitehill, there are no duties into Canada, not sure about the others but it could be the same. Here's their selection: http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=103 I have the 15 - 29mm if you have any questions.

    B
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  3. #3
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    Brent I have two shapers but will be running this on the larger one. It is a Minimax T50 5h.p. with 1 1/4'' spindle. There is a sticker on the machine that basically says 180mm max diameter. I have not confirmed if that is all that fits thru the table opening or their suggestion as to max size. What would I want to stack this with ? My Rebate cutters are both 120 mm (I think). Or are you suggesting that it would be the best option to keep all adjustable groovers the same diameter ?Are the Whitehill prices listed in British pounds ? Also can I buy replacement carbide tips on this side of the pond,or are they coming form England ?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kees View Post
    Brent I have two shapers but will be running this on the larger one. It is a Minimax T50 5h.p. with 1 1/4'' spindle. There is a sticker on the machine that basically says 180mm max diameter. I have not confirmed if that is all that fits thru the table opening or their suggestion as to max size. What would I want to stack this with ? My Rebate cutters are both 120 mm (I think). Or are you suggesting that it would be the best option to keep all adjustable groovers the same diameter ?Are the Whitehill prices listed in British pounds ? Also can I buy replacement carbide tips on this side of the pond,or are they coming form England ?
    I would keep any groovers you get the same size for sure. Gives you another tenoning option. The prices are in British Pounds but I would check to verify that the carbide tips are universal, I'm not sure because I haven't run out of the handful I bought when I got the groover. I know the straight carbide knives in some of their other heads are, and the little 4-sided spurs are as well, but it's worth verifying. I will PM you the email of the guy I usually talk with over there.

    Brent
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kees View Post
    Brent I have two shapers but will be running this on the larger one. It is a Minimax T50 5h.p. with 1 1/4'' spindle. There is a sticker on the machine that basically says 180mm max diameter. I have not confirmed if that is all that fits thru the table opening or their suggestion as to max size. What would I want to stack this with ? My Rebate cutters are both 120 mm (I think). Or are you suggesting that it would be the best option to keep all adjustable groovers the same diameter ?Are the Whitehill prices listed in British pounds ? Also can I buy replacement carbide tips on this side of the pond,or are they coming form England ?

    Whoops, guess I can't!

    The main email is here: https://www.whitehill-tools.com/contact-us.php

    I just did a quick search and found a couple other folks who sell the same size knife as used in one of their heads, so I expect you have other option for where to get them if you need to replace them.
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kees View Post
    Brent I have two shapers but will be running this on the larger one. It is a Minimax T50 5h.p. with 1 1/4'' spindle. There is a sticker on the machine that basically says 180mm max diameter. I have not confirmed if that is all that fits thru the table opening or their suggestion as to max size. What would I want to stack this with ? My Rebate cutters are both 120 mm (I think). Or are you suggesting that it would be the best option to keep all adjustable groovers the same diameter ?Are the Whitehill prices listed in British pounds ? Also can I buy replacement carbide tips on this side of the pond,or are they coming form England ?
    Hi Mike,they follow me on Instagram so I took a shot and messaged them and they got back to me. The cutters are not unique to their tooling, so you should be able to get replacements over here no prob. They are double ground so have two edges each.

    B
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  7. #7
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    Thanks. Now to start comparing pricing .

  8. #8
    Amana and Whitehill were closest if I remember correctly, but it's tough because there're slight differences. The Amana is a dial style but they can get gummed up.

    Amana 8-24mm (2 sets) = $760 USD (https://www.toolstoday.com/insert-ad...ut-8-24mm.html)
    Whitehill 8 - 29mm (2 sets) $537 USD (http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=103)

    B
    Last edited by brent stanley; 02-02-2019 at 4:53 PM.
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kees View Post
    What I have figured out. Most I have seen have the two part design with "registration pins" in the center section where one installs shims to vary the thickness. They all seem about the same. Question is any brand noticeably better than others ? Do most of these use generic insert cutters available at numerous sources ?The last aspect of this equation is the thickness range of the tool. I have pretty much decided that a 5or8mm to 12mm and a 12mm to 24mm are the two ranges that will probably end up in my arsenal. Which one would you purchase first ? Are these the right size ranges to cover most uses ? I will be using these for commercial work as well as furniture etc. Presently I am looking at Amana ,anyone with suggestions on which tools to look at or other brands entirely please fill me in. Thanks Mike.
    Mike in my daily experience if your machine will take 180mm cutters try to get 180mm grooving cutters which also double as tenon cutters. Depending on your type of work 3.5mm to 8mm is a necessity based of current panel thicknesses along with anything above 8mm to at least 20mm. Other sizes can easily be added if you find a need. Seeing that you are also in Canada I might suggest Royce-Ayr and FS tool as 2 of the superior tool companies with manufacturing in facilities in our country. I try to keep as much of my money here with Canadian business when I can especially for support when needed.

  10. #10
    The smaller groover would be very nice, for thinner panels, but they're very expensive.
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kees View Post
    What I have figured out. Most I have seen have the two part design with "registration pins" in the center section where one installs shims to vary the thickness. They all seem about the same. Question is any brand noticeably better than others ? Do most of these use generic insert cutters available at numerous sources ?The last aspect of this equation is the thickness range of the tool. I have pretty much decided that a 5or8mm to 12mm and a 12mm to 24mm are the two ranges that will probably end up in my arsenal. Which one would you purchase first ? Are these the right size ranges to cover most uses ? I will be using these for commercial work as well as furniture etc. Presently I am looking at Amana ,anyone with suggestions on which tools to look at or other brands entirely please fill me in. Thanks Mike.
    These are all pretty generic anymore and the straight inserts are universal on all I have seen. The exception might be the 4mm to 7.5 These usually do not take a straight knife but rather a 4 side insert. They look the same from different mfgs but might not be.

    There is a difference in quality between the brands I have experienced. With insert tools itís all about the fixing system. These are patented by the Mfg. Some are better than others. My first insert tools were Felder. These are made by Stark in Italy. You have to be very careful changing inserts on these, itís easy to get them off at a slight angle. This will show up either with lines in the groove or your shoulders will not align when tenoning. These are workable, you just have to be careful. Most of my groovers are the old Garniga. They are better than Stark for fixing but not the best. I also have a big 250 diameter groover from Zuani and their fixing system is the best of my groovers. Probably some of the best fixing systems in the industry are owned by Leitz and Oertly. I donít have their groovers but other inserts from them and they are good designs. No experience with the dial type adjusting. I would think the shim system is more repeatable. Make sure you get a wide assortment of shims with the set.

    Not all have the pins. I donít think they are necessary. I do think it best to stay with one mfg. and one diameter. Mine are all 160 with the exception of my Felder small groover that is 180. I would go 180 if doing it over. The 180 might be the max size your shaper fence will take.

    I find the most used set I have is the 15 to 30 and the 30 to 60. Depends on your work. If cabinets the 4 to 7.5 would be big. I have additional same diameter cutters I can put between all my Garniga heads to get wider if needed.
    I was reminded again this week of how useful these are. We are doing some elliptical and constant radius casing heads on a historic job we have been working on. Normally we finger joint the segments on curve work. These get profiled deeply on the face and thought the finger joints might look odd. I used my Felder 4 to 7.5 to cut a 25 mm deep slot and the 15 to 30 set for the 25mm X4mm tenon that is below the profile. You can see where the larger diameter Felder groover complicates the setup some.
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  12. #12
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    For me grooves for thinner panels is a necessity. This means the lower end. I have an Amana 4-15.5 This gets above 1/2" grooves and below 1/4"

  13. #13
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    Joe thanks so much for the detailed reply. You hit a lot of the things I have been thinking through .It is so hard trying to figure out what tooling to purchase all on your own when you do not have a huge amount of experience with different brands. My shaper tooling collection recently skyrocketed with the purchase of a used shaper. The stuff I got is all quality mid range tooling. What remains to be seen is how much of it will be useful to me. I know that I need an adjustable groover and it will be very useful with the type of work I want to do.Thanks Brent,John and Carl for expanding my base of knowledge and helping me with my endless questions.Mike

  14. #14
    I"m looking for a smaller set so I was looking at prices.....

    Looks like going from 8 - 30mm with the Italian Rangate (Zuani) is just shy of $1000. YEEOWZA!

    Royce doesn't post their prices online but I found a quote for 15.5-30mm in the range of $400-$450 and if you assume the same for the 8-15mm we're looking at the better part of $1000 for that range from them too.

    Expensive stuff.

    B
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DovetailTimberworks

  15. #15
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    Florida
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    If the 228mm fits your shaper and hood, can these work for both saw and shaper purposes?

    http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US...nit-RB-HW.html

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