adjustable groovers for shapers-which ones ?

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod or Joe when you divide the halves of your groover and invert to do tenons ,what do you use to space them ? Is it the shims only or have you ever used the spacer collars from your shaper spindle. I was looking at mine today in the shop and I have 5,10 and 20 mm right there. Could they be used in this way ?

Hi Mike, yes I use a spacer and a shim or two as required.

Since I use a hollow chisel Mortimer I have a log for setup that has the spacers and shims listed for the three chisel sizes I use......Rod

[Mike Kees]

Thanks Joe and Rod. I learned something else, the idea of keeping notes of your setups is excellent. This reminds me of "the book" in my work truck. The hard part of making decisions for me is not being able to compare tooling hands on. Wish I could see a row of 5-6 of these things. Would most of these manufacturers be at AWFS or whatever it is called in Vegas ? I am planning to drive down to that with a friend.

[brent stanley]

Thanks Joe and Rod. I learned something else, the idea of keeping notes of your setups is excellent. This reminds me of "the book" in my work truck. The hard part of making decisions for me is not being able to compare tooling hands on. Wish I could see a row of 5-6 of these things. Would most of these manufacturers be at AWFS or whatever it is called in Vegas ? I am planning to drive down to that with a friend.

I stick my notebooks to the side of each shaper with a magnet so they're always handy!

It is a pain to not be able to see them in person, and internet pictures don't always give you everything especially if their a little older and the design has changed. Nowadays competition is pretty fierce and they all watch each other so I expect if you get something from a reputable manufacturer you'll be able to produce quality product.....good luck.

B

[John Kee]

Thanks Joe and Rod. I learned something else, the idea of keeping notes of your setups is excellent. This reminds me of "the book" in my work truck. The hard part of making decisions for me is not being able to compare tooling hands on. Wish I could see a row of 5-6 of these things. Would most of these manufacturers be at AWFS or whatever it is called in Vegas ? I am planning to drive down to that with a friend.

Mike I went down in 2015 and it was a great eye opener, IMHO, going is a must if you're a professional and never been before. Google AWFS exhibitor list and you can see who's going to be there and the surprising number that aren't. Still haven't decided if I'm going.

[brent stanley]

So I had a fun day today installing some crown moulding.....that I milled myself over cabinets I made with all my inexperience.....after walking through a door in a historic designated home that I made with all my inexperience. Just having fun with ya!

While I was doing that I talked with Felder but they're going to get back to me after some research, and I also heard back from 4 different manufacturers of adjustable groovers. Two of them said you could invert their tooling for tenons but only very short tenons and one of those said it would compromise the MAN rating. The other two said no....you could not split them and use them for making tenons.

So for the OP, since you're wisely looking at a number of different manufacturers, I think the take-home is exactly what I suspected and have been promoting all along.....if you're thinking about using tooling outside of what the manufacturer says it's designed for, consult the manufacturer. If you're an old veteran expert with lots of experience, you may be able to look at it and know, but if you can't put your hands on it, or don't have that experience....it's not wise to assume because subtle differences in design between manufacturers evidently can make a difference. You could end up getting different than you'd hoped for your money, or in a dangerous situation.

Anyway, I'm not going to stick around for any more attacking or name-calling, but to Mike and Greg, good luck and feel free to email me with any questions about tooling I own....I'm happy to help.

b

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe and Rod. I learned something else, the idea of keeping notes of your setups is excellent. This reminds me of "the book" in my work truck. The hard part of making decisions for me is not being able to compare tooling hands on. Wish I could see a row of 5-6 of these things. Would most of these manufacturers be at AWFS or whatever it is called in Vegas ? I am planning to drive down to that with a friend.

Mike,
The woodworking shows are a great learning experience especially if you have never been to one. Not so much for the dazzle of new machinery but you get a chance to network with other woodworkers who are trying to solve similar issues to what you face. There are always many tooling companies at these and usually with tools on display.

As I said the adj. groovers are pretty common and you probably would not go wrong with any reputable mfg. As far as tenoning with these I have never had issues with my Garniga smaller disks or the 250mm Zuani disk I use in my sliding saw and also for tenons on the shaper. Main thing is you want to respect the max depth of cut they call out in the drawings. My motive for this tool was to have a groover for the saw and the 250 diameter fits all my shaper fences so I do not have to install the tenon hood to use it. If you are not planning to use the groover in a saw it’s probably cheaper to buy a couple tenon disks to do deeper tenons. The only difference between the adj. groover halves and a tenon disk is the rake they usually put on the tenon disks. I don’t know if you have a Felder saw but the disk Rod has works well in those and on the shaper.
I have a couple MAN tenon disks I will get a picture of tomorrow next to the adj. disk just for comparison.

Here are the factory drawings for the groovers I use.

From European mfgs you will never find much info on how tooling is used because in that market they assume you went through a school to learn this. The cause of much frustration in North America.
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[Mike Kees]

Couple of things.. Joe I would love to be able to buy a groover that I could share with my saw and shaper. Saw is a Felder k700s with a 30mm bore. My shaper is a Minimax T50 with 1 1/4'' spindle. So could I use a bushing on my saw ? I have taken all your advice to heart and will stick with one manufacturer and diameter. Also plan to buy only the groovers that separate and use shims. I also learned from this thread that the sticker on my fence is telling me the max diameter with the main fence installed. I do have a tenoning hood as well.my shaper has a sliding table and tilting spindle as well. Thinking through all the possibilities that these open up boggles my mind. I found a youtube video the other day that showed a Lietz (I think) two piece rebate head ,that would be a handy piece of tooling. You could use it as a standard rebate or cut tenons,etc. I think that I will spend some time figuring out and playing with all the possibilities that this new to me shaper and tooling have. I will Probably wait till Vegas to pull the trigger on a adjustable groover. Mike.

[Joe Calhoon]

Mike, it’s possible to use reduction bushings with adj groovers but it can get complicated and you would need 2 or possibly 3 ranges of size to use the full adjustability of the groover. It also can run the risk of spinning the cutter if everything is not right. Reduction bushes work great for a lot of things but not when you are stacking cutters.

Now when I say same mfg - same diameter only referring to the smaller diameter ones that you might want to mix and match between the sets. The larger disks for tenoning could be different.

[Joe Calhoon]

The 2 piece head you refer to is what some of the Euro mfgs call a multi use head. That is what my Garniga head in one of the cutter drawings I posted is. It is basically a large adj groover range 30 to 60 that can be used inverted for tenons or stacked to make grooves between 30 and 60 or used as a rebate head up to 60 deep. Plus it has adjustable slots to accept radius, chamfer and grooving knives. This and my z4 rebate cutter are my most used cutters.

A lot of cutter choices depend on what you are building. I am architectural millwork, doors and windows. Every job different and I use most of the joinery type tooling a lot. A cabinet or furniture only shop would have a more limited range of what they would use.

[Rod Sheridan]

Mike,

I don’t know if you have a Felder saw but the disk Rod has works well in those and on the shaper.
I have a couple MAN tenon disks I will get a picture of tomorrow next to the adj. disk just for comparison.

Here are the factory drawings for the groovers I use.

From European mfgs you will never find much info on how tooling is used because in that market they assume you went through a school to learn this. The cause of much frustration in North America.

Joe, that last sentence sums it up perfectly, I run into this often, even hobby wood workers in Europe tend to have formal wood working training through night programs at technical institutes.

When you meet and talk to these people, they all have training and experience with modern European machinery, tooling and shop procedures and safety standards. It affects how equipment and tooling manufacturers deal with their customers, as they expect them to have a relatively good understanding of the technical basics.

Joe, you are correct in that I have a couple pieces of tooling I share with the saw and shaper, as I have a 30mm spindle for my shaper........Regards, Rod.

[John Kee]

Mike any chance Minimax has a 30mm spindle available for your shaper. Not familiar with Minimax at all. I have a Felder F700Z with a 30mm, 1 1/4" and a Router spindle. The 30mm was only $350.00 CDN. This allows maximum versatility for most situations IMHO. Also good for using sawblades on your shaper if needed.

[Mike Kees]

John I have not even checked. I need to find out. Mike.

[Greg Parrish]

So I could order a different sized spindle for my Felder KF500 for 1.25” or router bits? I’ve ordered a Whitehill combo block with flush mount capability in 30mm arbor but am curious about the other spindle possibility. Lots of learning curve. LOL

[Rod Sheridan]

So I could order a different sized spindle for my Felder KF500 for 1.25” or router bits? I’ve ordered a Whitehill combo block with flush mount capability in 30mm arbor but am curious about the other spindle possibility. Lots of learning curve. LOL

Hi Greg, if your KF500 has the MF spindle system (new) then it's the short spindle that is interchangeable, and you can have different size spindles. You can verify this if the spindle cap bolt is long and you can lift the approximately 6 inch long interchangeable portion of the spindle out.

If your KF500 has the same Hammer shaper configuration as mine, it's a 1" solid spindle with sleeves to make it 1.25" or optionally 30mm. I have both.


Regards, Rod.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks Rod.

Hmmmmm. Now I’m not sure but I pulled the bolt and some of the black spacers and measured the silver spindle getting 1.18” with my calipers which is 30mm. That said, I have no clue which system that means I have since this didn’t come with an original invoice or whatnot and since I bought it used from its second owner that also didn’t know.

Hi Greg, if your KF500 has the MF spindle system (new) then it's the short spindle that is interchangeable, and you can have different size spindles. You can verify this if the spindle cap bolt is long and you can lift the approximately 6 inch long interchangeable portion of the spindle out.

If your KF500 has the same Hammer shaper configuration as mine, it's a 1" solid spindle with sleeves to make it 1.25" or optionally 30mm. I have both.


Regards, Rod.