Maka stv vs oliver 91d?

[Jared Sankovich]

Strange question, but for general shop usage which would you pick? Assuming the same price and condition. And you only have room for one

The Maka seems like a chore to change the mortise parameters (location, and width) for just a few cuts.

[Jared Sankovich]

Another question, will a Maka run off a VFD?

[Mark Hennebury]

If you are doing just a few cuts, stick with the Oliver. If you are doing more, variety ; various sizes, haunched, double, angle ends, multiple quantities, and you need to do them precise and fast then you can't beat a Maka. Not a chore to adjust. certainly not a chore to push the button and cut a complete mortise in one pass, one setup and only a few seconds, oh yes and to have the next one exactly the same, and the next and......

[Joe Calhoon]

Jared,
This is a great question, I can answer some and hope Mark can add some advise on making the Maka a little more versatile. Mark made some good points already.
i have a STV and a Wadkin DM hollow chisel. The DM gets used a lot more for the odd one off stuff because of the ease of setup.
The DM has a precise movement of the in and out of the table and fairly easy to set stops for length and depth of mortise. It does have a setting for haunched mortises. I can lay out a mortise on the workpiece and in a couple minutes set the machine by eye without a test cut. I do have to mark out every mortise to use the DM. These did have a fence system and a better setup for multiple mortise length settings but mine did not come with that. Looking for these and will build my own if I cannot find. I looked at a couple Oliver 91s before buying this and think the DM is better in most respects. The one downside to the DM is the bushings for the auger. They are a pain to use and the old ones do not fit the Japanese augers. Custom bushings will help solve this.
i believe the Oliver has a chuck or can be fitted with one and that is a huge plus.

As Mark points out the Maka is clean cutting, precise, repeatable and the ability to stack cutters for double mortise work is a plus for me as a lot of our doors are built that way. It is quicker to change chisels than the DM. Height, depth and haunching are easy to set. The STV is auto feed and I don’t like that for setup. Adjusting the length of mortise within the range of the chisel is a little tricky for me. I usually don’t mess with this and use the narrow ones and just move the workpiece. To get chipout free mortises you need a backer fence where the chisel exits. I find this time consuming to set and maybe Mark can offer advise here.
So for a typical stile and rail door you might have a variety of mortise widths for bottom rails mulls etc. My method for this is to use a narrow chisel, make marks on the backer fence where the chisel enters and exits and line those up with the marks on the workpiece using and moving the stops for repeats and moving the workpiece for wider mortises. My Maka only has the stop used on the table. They did offer a stop system for longer lengths and I have never understood how these worked. I share the Glide Stop we use on the Graule saw but this does not work that well with the Maka and can move a little when using larger cutters. A left and right fence would be nice on this as well as the Wadkin. I know some shops use a Tiger stop type fence on these with success.
I do find for one off doors I use the HC.

3209B592-2EDA-4D34-ACC6-ABD9A9DB0793.jpg
C7774673-2406-4021-91E2-7289354D9F2D.jpg
28BA3ED2-28EA-4728-8561-AFD5416E717C.jpg

[Jared Sankovich]

Jared,
This is a great question, I can answer some and hope Mark can add some advise on making the Maka a little more versatile. Mark made some good points already.
i have a STV and a Wadkin DM hollow chisel. The DM gets used a lot more for the odd one off stuff because of the ease of setup.
The DM has a precise movement of the in and out of the table and fairly easy to set stops for length and depth of mortise. It does have a setting for haunched mortises. I can lay out a mortise on the workpiece and in a couple minutes set the machine by eye without a test cut. I do have to mark out every mortise to use the DM. These did have a fence system and a better setup for multiple mortise length settings but mine did not come with that. Looking for these and will build my own if I cannot find. I looked at a couple Oliver 91s before buying this and think the DM is better in most respects. The one downside to the DM is the bushings for the auger. They are a pain to use and the old ones do not fit the Japanese augers. Custom bushings will help solve this.
i believe the Oliver has a chuck or can be fitted with one and that is a huge plus.

As Mark points out the Maka is clean cutting, precise, repeatable and the ability to stack cutters for double mortise work is a plus for me as a lot of our doors are built that way. It is quicker to change chisels than the DM. Height, depth and haunching are easy to set. The STV is auto feed and I don’t like that for setup. Adjusting the length of mortise within the range of the chisel is a little tricky for me. I usually don’t mess with this and use the narrow ones and just move the workpiece. To get chipout free mortises you need a backer fence where the chisel exits. I find this time consuming to set and maybe Mark can offer advise here.
So for a typical stile and rail door you might have a variety of mortise widths for bottom rails mulls etc. My method for this is to use a narrow chisel, make marks on the backer fence where the chisel enters and exits and line those up with the marks on the workpiece using and moving the stops for repeats and moving the workpiece for wider mortises. My Maka only has the stop used on the table. They did offer a stop system for longer lengths and I have never understood how these worked. I share the Glide Stop we use on the Graule saw but this does not work that well with the Maka and can move a little when using larger cutters. A left and right fence would be nice on this as well as the Wadkin. I know some shops use a Tiger stop type fence on these with success.
I do find for one off doors I use the HC.

3209B592-2EDA-4D34-ACC6-ABD9A9DB0793.jpg
C7774673-2406-4021-91E2-7289354D9F2D.jpg
28BA3ED2-28EA-4728-8561-AFD5416E717C.jpg

Thanks Joe, I thought you had a STV.

Your explanation is about what I expected. Part of my thinking the STV was a pain to adjust was the seller had never used it, and had no idea how it worked.

They told me the chisel had to be shimed with spacers to adjust the height off the table.

Anyway how difficult is it to aquire chisels for these?

[Brian Holcombe]

Jared,

I bought chisels recently, they’re very easy to get but a tad pricey. Lussault in France makes them, they offer carbide tips and air holes where the air runs through the chisel and blows the chips out.

They make for both the SM and the STV series.

From order to delivery was about four days, amazingly fast.

I spoke with Dominique BAUDU, the Tooling manager, he sent detailed drawings of the chisels I wanted made. I adjusted the length and size to hit the range of most commonly used sizes per each chisel.

I’ll detail how they cut once I get the going, but so far I’ve got the buying part covered.

[Joe Calhoon]

Jared,
chisels are expensive and new ones have to come from Europe. Mark does have a good selection of used chisels. Part of my issues with the STV is not having all the chisel sizes I need. Working on that. One plus for a swinging chisel machine is you can enlarge a mortise with 2 passes without getting deflection in the mortise walls. For example with a 1/2” chisel you could make a 9/16 or larger mortise by just moving the head up or down. This is how the new CNC chisel mortisers work for different sizes.

the STV is adjustable for height by handwheel. One turn =3mm change in height. I use a digital height gauge to set mine.
Or you can crank the chisel out and line it up with a mark. Should be no need to shim the cutter.

I think the smaller Maka SM6 like Brian H is rebuilding is probably better for one off. The joy of these machines is the perfect and clean mortise.

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks all.

Had it been the smaller sm6, it would be in my shop right now.

Hand wheel... that was part of the confusion, this particular machine had none to speak of.

[Joe Calhoon]

Sorry, not a hand wheel. There is a T handle wrench you put down near the head. Works easy though.

[Mark Hennebury]

The Maka mortiser is a great machine for speed, precision and versatility , can't be beat. But they are a more complicated machine, as is any automatic machine. Automatic machines are a different beast entirely. You have a complex system of electrics, air and hydraulics, you have synchronized automatic movement. There is a lot more going on in these machines than a simple 1950's manual hollow chisel machine, and most of the Maka's that show up are over 30 years old. Even those that have had normal use and still will most likely need a minimum rebuild. new bearings in the motor and head unit, possible new linear bearings and maybe linear rail etc... there are many parts on these machines. If the machine has been run into the ground in a production facility they can be toast. The machines do a lot of serious heavy work and that takes its toll. Maka don't make mortisers any more! I have rebuilt many and parts are few and far between, and expensive if and when they can be had. If you get a good machine you are golden, they are worth their weight in gold, if you get a bad one they will cost you a lot of gold. If you are the type that likes a challenge and will do the work on the machines yourself, not so much of a problem, but if you have to find someone that is capable and knowledgeable to do it , it will be expensive. Having said that, i am not trying to scare you off, personally i would love to have about half a dozen mortisers if i could, i would definitely have a couple of Maka's, an STV, and SM model, i also really like the multi head models with 11' long tables.I would also have a hollow chisel mortiser probable Wadkin or Robinson and an automatic Balestrini slot mortiser. The CNC Maka style machine are awesome.
The Smaller SM models are probable a better choice for a studio craftsman doing smaller stuff. See Brian Holcombe's beautiful rebuild.

Below are photos of some of the damage from one head that i received to do a rebuild on. pretty much every casting cracked, main rotor shaft destroyed, oscillator worn out, pivot pin..shot, bearings..shot.
1-SAM_3975.JPG2-SAM_3982.JPG2-SAM_4226.JPG3-SAM_3984.JPG3-SAM_4228.JPG4-SAM_4229-001.JPG5-SAM_4230-001.JPG5-SAM_3989.JPG

[Mark Hennebury]

In the two photos below you are looking at about $5000 worth of parts. first photo is about $3500 for the head, second phot is for replacement bearing for the feed unit, linear rails and bearings.

1-CIMG2432 (3).JPG1-SAM_3166.JPG

[Mark Hennebury]

This is the air and hydraulic system.

1-SAM_3104.JPG

[Joe Calhoon]

The CNC mortisers are awesome and really the answer if you want to use one of these effectively. I had a chance to watch the Centauro CNC mortisers in action at a couple UK shops. They even had a built in hollow chisel for the narrow bars on divided lite doors.
Myself at this point we just do a few M&T doors and want to use the Maka for furniture I build for myself or friends.
i believe Mark sells Lari & Lari mortisers that are at least equal to or better than the Centauro machines.

5A6B3A8B-09AD-48F4-BC22-7EC88C380323.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

Jared,

I bought chisels recently, they’re very easy to get but a tad pricey. Lussault in France makes them, they offer carbide tips and air holes where the air runs through the chisel and blows the chips out.

They make for both the SM and the STV series.

From order to delivery was about four days, amazingly fast.

I spoke with Dominique BAUDU, the Tooling manager, he sent detailed drawings of the chisels I wanted made. I adjusted the length and size to hit the range of most commonly used sizes per each chisel.

I’ll detail how they cut once I get the going, but so far I’ve got the buying part covered.

Brian,
thanks for the feedback on Lassaut. I am thinking about ordering from them. Here is another company I have been considering and may be cheaper but I think Lassuat is better quality.

http://www.omertools.it/en/index.html

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Joe! Glad to see that there is at least another source for the chisels. Makes sense that Italy makes them as well given that Lari and Lari and Centauro are both Italian.

Here's an up close with the Lussalt's:





I size work in imperial, so this one is 3/8".

Excited to see how these cut, but I'll probably make my test cuts with one of the old (but resharpened) chisels. I'm a little nervous to start using these.