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Thread: About sharpening handsaws

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    There is nothing worth duplicating about that tooth geometry. I expect it was originally a rip saw.
    I think you are right. Having a bunch of rake on the push stroke does make for an easy starting saw, but slow slow slow. And a bunch of jointing to get to shaping. Jeez louise. I don't expect to pay that much for a saw so badly out of joint again unless it is one I really really want in my till. Like a 1878 to 1888 Disston and sons maybe in a tooth pattern I don't own already.
    Last edited by Scott Winners; 10-07-2019 at 11:20 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Winners View Post
    Which I did when I jointed and reshaped the saw. First time through I was going for 20 degrees of rake, created 40 degrees of rake. it started real real easy on round pieces of tree with the bark still on, and on the pull stroke it cut pretty good. Not your fault, but I snorted when I realized what I had done.
    Scott; your going to hear comments that suggest sharpening a hand saw is easy. The truth is, it takes a great deal practice to develop that skill set.

    Stewie;

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Scott; your going to hear comments that suggest sharpening a hand saw is easy. The truth is, it takes a great deal practice to develop that skill set.

    Stewie;
    A little personal observation on this, sharpening a saw to a point where it can cut well is not all that hard. It is sharpening a saw to where it can cut exceptionally well that takes a great deal of practice to develop.

    Some of my terrible sharpening attempts somehow do okay. It is when great care and attention to detail is undertaken that the results does the work to put a great big grin on my face and a warm fuzzy feeling all over.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Winners View Post
    If anyone is "good" at planes and wants to whip some of my Baileys into shape in exchange for having some sharp saws arrive at your shop in a box, please to drop a PM to me.
    Is your issue with the entire plane, or just the blades? When I have had a troublesome plane, I went to see Steve (who posts here regularly). If I just need to sharpen the blade, I rarely have problems with that unless the backs are in terrible shape.

    So, curious what your real issue with the planes are.

  5. #65
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    The only thing I ask, is postage both ways. IF there aren't any breaks, or missing parts....planes can be sent back to their homes in less than a week...

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    The only thing I ask, is postage both ways. IF there aren't any breaks, or missing parts....planes can be sent back to their homes in less than a week...
    Steve made my "that won't at all" plane to a "it actually works"; the sweet spot was smaller, and thus harder to hit, than a plane costing 5 to 10 times the price, but I could make it work.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Scott; if your measuring a 36* rake angle, its likely some loose goose has filed that tooth pattern backwards.
    +1 sorry didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if my comment is redundant:

    lots of vintage saws you find in the wild have horrible tooth geometry created by the last generation of owners who didn't really use hand saws on a regular basis. I highly encourage you to go by the saw sharpening primer on Pete Taran site vintage saws.com. It has clear descriptions/pictures of the relevant geometry your shooting for.

    Once you have little experience, you'll be able to "tune" the geometry for specific tasks – for example you mentioned crosscutting large stock for timber framing. In this case speed is what matters and the "smoothness" of the sawn surface is really irrelevant. For this application, I like a 12 rake angle and 25 fleam angle – really aggressive and fast, as a compared to 15 rake angle and 20 fleam angle that I prefer for smaller pitch/smaller stock in kiln dried hardwoods.

    Likewise, for damp or soft woods often used in timber framing, you need more set than kiln dried hardwood – damp/softwood springs back after the teeth move through without sufficient set. Rule of thumb for set width I like is 15% of plate thickness at the widest spot (heel at tooth line) for kiln dried North American hardwoods and 20% for softwoods/construction grade lumber.

    Finally, in sawing large timbers involved in timber framing you're going to be blowing through a lot of woods so sloped gullets are helpful as they allow this saw to carry more sawdust through the deep/wide kerfs, which otherwise prevents stopping the teeth from cutting when the gullets are filled with sawdust.

    I just helped my brother-in-law build a patio cover out of-10' x 10" Doug fir. I have a Disston D – 8, 28" long thumbhole 5 1/2 PPI set up crosscut as described above. While the depth of cut on his electric worm drive saw was maxed out sawing tennons, the Disston flew through the stock right to the layout line in no time. Of course, I'm not as young as strong as I used to be so multiple beer breaks were required to maintain hydration and we finally pooped out around 3 PM.

    Best, Mike

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post

    lots of vintage saws you find in the wild have horrible tooth geometry created by the last generation of owners who didn't really use hand saws on a regular basis.
    I bet you are right. This would explain a LOT of what I see in antique stores.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post
    I highly encourage you to go by the saw sharpening primer on Pete Taran site vintage saws.com. It has clear descriptions/pictures of the relevant geometry your shooting for.
    I have downloaded so much text from Pete's website that I am kind of watching for something to buy just to make it up to him, though I do have a 1850ish Spear Jackson I am probably going to send in to him for professional rehab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post
    Once you have little experience, you'll be able to "tune" the geometry for specific tasks for example you mentioned crosscutting large stock for timber framing. In this case speed is what matters and the "smoothness" of the sawn surface is really irrelevant. For this application, I like a 12 rake angle and 25 fleam angle really aggressive and fast, as a compared to 15 rake angle and 20 fleam angle that I prefer for smaller pitch/smaller stock in kiln dried hardwoods.

    Likewise, for damp or soft woods often used in timber framing, you need more set than kiln dried hardwood damp/softwood springs back after the teeth move through without sufficient set. Rule of thumb for set width I like is 15% of plate thickness at the widest spot (heel at tooth line) for kiln dried North American hardwoods and 20% for softwoods/construction grade lumber.

    Finally, in sawing large timbers involved in timber framing you're going to be blowing through a lot of woods so sloped gullets are helpful as they allow this saw to carry more sawdust through the deep/wide kerfs, which otherwise prevents stopping the teeth from cutting when the gullets are filled with sawdust.

    I just helped my brother-in-law build a patio cover out of-10' x 10" Doug fir. I have a Disston D 8, 28" long thumbhole 5 1/2 PPI set up crosscut as described above. While the depth of cut on his electric worm drive saw was maxed out sawing tennons, the Disston flew through the stock right to the layout line in no time. Of course, I'm not as young as strong as I used to be so multiple beer breaks were required to maintain hydration and we finally pooped out around 3 PM.

    Best, Mike
    I agree with all that. Thanks. For my green softwood timber framing saw pair I went with 1896 to 1917 "and sons", my favorite saws for handle comfort and nice heavy plates.

    For the rip I ground 5 points per inch at 8 degrees rake with just a touch - ten degrees- of fleam on them to cope with irregular grain, no gullet slope and 20 thousandths of one inch of set. I have been expressing set as thousandths wider than the plate thickness just above the teeth. As I get comfortable / experienced with it I can likely shape less rake onto the teeth, but as a pretty much n00b to rip sawing for now I use 8 degrees of rake.

    For the crosscut, same 5 points per inch, 20 degrees of rake and 20 degrees of regular horizontal fleam. I also ground in 20 degrees of vertical fleam or gullet slope - exactly as you say to increase chip capacity in the gullets, and made the set 20 thousandths.

    Both saws are working pretty well for me in my shop, I have been experimenting on "GDF" from the Borg, that is WWPA graded Green Douglas Fir in 4x6. I made a pair of plates and a pair of short rafters lately. The spring wood in this product has been hard on the edge of my framing chisel but the saws are holding up very well, I will think about bumping up the fleam on the crosscut in the future. However, I do need to start working with my local sawmill's green spruce before I get too carried away dialing in for Lowes-Depot GDF.
    tfpair.jpg2seats.jpgsmallpair.jpg

  9. #69
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    Nice looking timber framing joinery Scott!!!

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