Shaper questions

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks. So cmt knives fit the Amana head? I can mix and match?

Unless you want all the specific profiles included, I've found it better to but the head and knives separately. Cmt knives are $14, I prefer amana heads.

Okay, thanks. I’m not over but do plan to upgrade the main wire running to my garage panel, so I’ll look into it at that point.

Feeders have very low power requirements. You wouldn't need more capacity unless you were over the limit already.

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks. So cmt knives fit the Amana head? I can mix and match?





Okay, thanks. I’m not over but do plan to upgrade the main wire running to my garage panel, so I’ll look into it at that point.

Yes all 40mm and most 50mm pin knives fit. There is a standard spacing and numbering system the manufacturers stick to.

Basically a #83 profile will be the same regardless of who made it.

[Greg Parrish]

Oh, cool. In that case, Felder has a starter set for about the same price that might be another option provided other brand knives fit it.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US...Head-oxid.html

Yes all 40mm and most 50mm pin knives fit. There is a standard spacing and numbering system the manufacturers stick to.

Basically a #83 profile will be the same regardless of who made it.

[Mike Kees]

Yes the knives are standard. That is the cutterhead I was talking about. Check out Routerbitworld for Amana and CMT.

[Phillip Gregory]

My new Felder KF500 Pro has a shaper unit built in. I’ve never owned or used a shaper so I’m working my way through the process of understanding how to use it, how it compliments my router table, and the best source for cutters (Felder ones are crazy expensive)

one thing ive found is places selling bushings to adapt 30mm and 1.25” cutters. Is this a valid approach, or are adapters a bad idea? Any sources for affordable but good quality cutters to get started? Any specific approaches that are better or easier on the shaper than the router?

I’m also still not certain if my shaper unit can use router bits or not but Thinking that it can’t.

Thanks for any pointers to get to get me moving in the right direction.

I looked at Felder's website for the unit you bought and like most European equipment makers' websites, there was a pretty limited amount of information. Standard equipment is a 4 hp motor with a 30 mm spindle, and Felder offered a range of spindles from 30 mm on up to 50 mm and with larger motors as well, which suggests (but without a manual or parts list I can't confirm) that the spindle bearings are larger than, say, a Delta HD, Powermatic 26/27/28 or a 3 hp Asian shaper and can likely handle 1 1/4" bore US standard tooling.

There is no problem with bushing up a spindle as long as the spindle bearings are suitable for the task. Get an assortment of short, long, and T bushings and you'll be fine. My Whitney 134 has enormous bearings (6311 and 6308) but came with the then-industry-standard 1 1/8" spindle top, so it requires being bushed up to 1 1/4" to run modern tooling, which it runs perfectly well. The thing you don't want to do is use bushings to run larger 1 1/4" tooling on a smaller shaper such as a 3 hp import or a Delta HD that only came with 3/4" or 1" spindles, and then take heavy cuts with the 1 1/4" tooling. You'll destroy the bearings pretty quickly doing that.

Generally running router bits on a shaper doesn't work well as most shapers turn too slowly to run router bits well. Many shapers top out at 10,000 rpm while routers go up to 23,000 rpm. A variable speed router with a 1/2" collet typically has a minimum speed of 10,000-13,000 rpm, so if you want to see how well a shaper would run a router bit, turn your router's speed all of the way down and see how it does. In my experience, unless you're running a large profile bit or a panel raiser, that slow of a speed leads to poor results. And if you are running a big profile bit or a panel raiser, you are much better off running that as a shaper cutter rather than a colleted router bit as the larger shaper cutter is more stable and gives a better surface finish. I use my router for small router bits and my shaper with shaper cutters for everything else.

What cutters you get depends on what you do. In general, a Euroblock head that can take the standard 40 mm and 50 mm steel knives is very useful, as is a carbide rabbeting/straight cutter for rabbets. I have a small number of brazed carbide straight cutters for grooving and cutting tenons, they are handy. If you make cabinets or doors, a set of appropriate stacked cutters would be helpful as well. I would only buy tooling when you need it, else you'll end up with some barely-used or never-used tooling in your shop that you thought you would use but never actually did.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks everyone. I’m going to bookmark this info and circle back later for reference.

[brent stanley]

Something like this Mike Kees? This is for making trim profiles but includes a bunch of blades as a kit. Says it fits 30mm.

https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-SC.../dp/B000P4LWLM

Hi Greg, a couple of issues related to that head from my perspective.

- It's not MAN rated which means it wouldn't be legal for use in much of Europe due to safety reasons. I understand not everyone is concerned about that, and that's fine by me, but for a manually operated machine for a relative newbie, I suggest something MAN rated.

- The assortment of knives that come with the head are typically less practical than they seem at first glance. You will often end up with knives that you will never use unfortunately and I support Jared's idea of resisting the temptation of these sets. The only company I know of that will let YOU pick the knives and give a discount for sets is Whitehill.

Many of these 40mm heads use the same standard pin spacing (24mm) and diameter (6mm) and will take the 40mm knives that are commonly available here as well as the 50mm knives mentioned.....however, I just noticed on the CMT web page that they don't recommend the 50mm knives in their 40mm head....they've changed the language from an old catalogue I have to be much more waffly and non-committal. Wondering if the aluminum head can't handle the additional load of milling 50mm of profile?

Also, the commonly available 40mm knives that are sold by Felder, CMT and Dimar are all made by the same company in Germany and wholesaled to these companies for retail to us. The steel and grinding accuracy will sometimes let you down as they are mass produced and cheap, but I own many and they have their role in a shop but I will get a set ground in superior steel if I need longer runs.

I use this sort of kit all the time, so feel free to fire away any questions!

Brent

[Rod Sheridan]

My new Felder KF500 Pro has a shaper unit built in. I’ve never owned or used a shaper so I’m working my way through the process of understanding how to use it, how it compliments my router table, and the best source for cutters (Felder ones are crazy expensive)

one thing ive found is places selling bushings to adapt 30mm and 1.25” cutters. Is this a valid approach, or are adapters a bad idea? Any sources for affordable but good quality cutters to get started? Any specific approaches that are better or easier on the shaper than the router?

I’m also still not certain if my shaper unit can use router bits or not but Thinking that it can’t.

Thanks for any pointers to get to get me moving in the right direction.

Hi Greg, if your machine has the MF spindle you can buy different sizes for it.

There’s nothing wrong with using sleeves to change diameters, I have the 1.25 and30mm sleeves for mine.

I have purchased tooling from Felder when it is on sale, especially the 30mm stuff.

I always suggest that people purchase a carbide rebate head 125mm, a Euroblock head with chip limiters to run HSS knives, and a groover.

If you have the 30mm spindle you can share tooling with the saw which is a money saver.

Too bad you’re not closer you could attend the Felder Canada shaper seminar......Rod

[brent stanley]

Hi Greg, if your machine has the MF spindle you can buy different sizes for it.

There’s nothing wrong with using sleeves to change diameters, I have the 1.25 and30mm sleeves for mine.

I have purchased tooling from Felder when it is on sale, especially the 30mm stuff.

I always suggest that people purchase a carbide rebate head 125mm, a Euroblock head with chip limiters to run HSS knives, and a Grover.

If you have the 30mm spindle you can share tooling with the saw which is a money saver.

Too bad you’re not closer you could attend the Felder Canada shaper seminar......Rod

The only thing I would add to Rod's list of tooling is a limiter-style panel raiser......if you expect to make any raised panels that is! With rebate block, limiter head, an adjustable groover and a panel raiser, you can perform 95% of the common shaper operations. I have the combi head from Whitehill which gives you a 125mm rebate block with spurs and shear cut knives, as well as a Euroblock head in one for significant cost savings. It's professional calibre kit with direct-from-manufacturer pricing. Page 93 gives you 2 options: http://whitehill.tools/catalogue/#page=93

B

[ChrisA Edwards]

Too bad you’re not closer you could attend the Felder Canada shaper seminar......Rod

I did a google search but couldn't find any info on this Felder event, can you tell me where, when and how much this seminar is, thanks.

Also, I've tried to find info on the MAN specifications and how these limiter blades work. I understand the safety concepts, but do you not get a certain amount of bounce as you feed the work into the cutter?

Brent's videos have been the most educational I can find.

[brent stanley]

I did a google search but couldn't find any info on this Felder event, can you tell me where, when and how much this seminar is, thanks.

Also, I've tried to find info on the MAN specifications and how these limiter blades work. I understand the safety concepts, but do you not get a certain amount of bounce as you feed the work into the cutter?

Brent's videos have been the most educational I can find.

Hi Chris, thank you for the kind words. I've been working on improving my videos and now when I look back on my older ones, the amount of "umms" and "ahhhs" drive me crazy! Glad they aren't too distracting. I'm doing a video on limiter style panel raisers today...hope it'll be better.

Here are a couple of helpful links that gives some details:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/tooling.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf

Roundform cutters can have a larger projection (up to 3mm) than limiter style, but the actual amount is decided on by a kickback test performed by the manufacturer.

Nice because it shows some older tooling that's no longer allowed.

The limiters that are ahead of the knives actually never contact the wood unless you have fed the stock way too fast. Some people are concerned that limiter tooling will not allow decent feed speeds, but that is not a concern at all. You can very easily feed limiter tooling fast enough to give a horrible finish, with prominent knife marks long before you start smacking into the backs of the limiters.

Cheers,

Brent

[ChrisA Edwards]

The limiters that are ahead of the knives actually never contact the wood unless you have fed the stock way too fast.
Brent

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for the explanation.

I'm still searching for a used Shaper on eBay and Craigslist, but it's looking more like I'll probably spring for a new one.

I got a quote from Felder for a Hammer F3, but I'm not sure I can justify twice the price of a Jet 5HP/1P unit.

So this thread is very helpful in further educating me the cutters and heads.available and I thank all.

[Carl Beckett]

I always suggest that people purchase a carbide rebate head 125mm, a Euroblock head with chip limiters to run HSS knives, and a Grover.

I recently took a step into this and found this to be excellent advice.

Just this weekend was cutting grooves for panels. Normally would have done this using a dado on a tablesaw (router table would be another option, but would be slow and likely require multi passes). Plus I had a bad experience with dado'ing along the edge of a board once.

The adjustable groover (Amana) was exceptional to use. Not cheap (tooling is the biggest limiter of getting into shaper work imo!). But I will likely leave it in the machine ongoing... can already tell it will get plenty of use.

[Rod Sheridan]

I did a google search but couldn't find any info on this Felder event, can you tell me where, when and how much this seminar is, thanks.

Also, I've tried to find info on the MAN specifications and how these limiter blades work. I understand the safety concepts, but do you not get a certain amount of bounce as you feed the work into the cutter?

Brent's videos have been the most educational I can find.

Hi, the Felder seminars are May 25 for band saw and jointer planer, September 21 for format saw and shaper.

Seminars are at no cost and a light lunch is provided. The reason they haven't been announced is that I've just set the dates...The location is Felder Canada in Toronto. Does Felder USA run seminars?

As for the chip limiters hitting the wood, the chip thickness would have to be greater than 1mm. If you do a calculation of 1mm X 2 knives X 6,000RPM you have 12,000mm per minute or 12 metres per minute feed speed. so if you don't push faster that 12 metres per minute you're fine. That is a ridiculous feed speed for good quality finish, you're normally somewhere around 6 metres or less.

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for the explanation.

I'm still searching for a used Shaper on eBay and Craigslist, but it's looking more like I'll probably spring for a new one.

I got a quote from Felder for a Hammer F3, but I'm not sure I can justify twice the price of a Jet 5HP/1P unit.

So this thread is very helpful in further educating me the cutters and heads.available and I thank all.

Hi, I do not know what you can justify of course, the 2 things I would say however is that having a sliding table, and a tilting spindle provide an enormous increase in what you can do with the shaper.

The tilting spindle allows you to use your rebate head to produce any bevel you wish, up to 45 degrees. Tilting the spindle also changes all molding profiles which can be used to tweak profiles.

The sliding table is fantastic for coping or cutting tenons, tenon hoods and tables are available for the F3 (I use the tenon hood and table often, sometimes with saw blades).

Here's an image of a HSS knife I use in the Euroblock head to make raised panels.

Raised Panel.PNG

Regards, Rod.