Dustopper?

[Mike Goetzke]

...rip off of Thien design?

I'm sure for several years many on this forum, like myself, have watched Phil Thien develop HIS fine particle separator. I built one for a previous HF dust collector, and made a smaller version for a 5-gallon bucket. Others as well as I shared with Phil and his community results and tweaks we made to HIS design.

Please see this post: Linky


Thanks,

Mike

[Prashun Patel]

I have built multiple Thien separators and they work well. All credit to him. I purchased one of these Dust Stoppers and I just received it. There are subtle differences between Thien's design and this.

Also, I will say that this price point, and simplicity in design has some big appeal that has lacked in previous separators (I've owned them all, Dust Deputy, Super Dust Deputy, Clearvue mini, Chinese knockoffs).

I have only just unboxed it, and have not tried it yet.

[chase standifer]

So the guy took an amalgamation of ideas described on a forum, put them together and arguably made a new product from a collection or ideas and is now selling them and filing for a patent? I don't see the issue. If there are differences, both in design and functionality then prior art doesn't matter if the design is different. It is up to the patent office to decide if there is enough of difference between Thien's design and the Dust Stopper before issuing the patent. If Thien didn't care about making money and wanted to share his design and ideas from the goodness of his heart, that is admirable and good on him. But, I don't see any issue with anyone else seeing the value in the idea, adapting and refining the design and then attempting to market, sell, and patent the product. If Thien or anyone else doesn't want this to happen with their ideas they should file for the patent themselves. At that point you can choose to let others use the IP for free and prevent other from using it for profit if you wish to do so. Getting upset that someone chooses to modify an idea published in a public forum and monetize it is ridiculous.

[Brice Rogers]

Chase,

If a person files for a patent and the patent office does their job correctly, they can only Claim ideas that are unique and which have not been revealed publicly before. So, in order to get a patent which cannot be challenged and struck down, they need to be claiming unique and novel differences from Prior Art (like Thein's and things shared in a public forum like this). They need to be careful and not be over-reaching and claiming other people's public domain ideas. Once something has been shared in a public domain, it cannot be patented by someone else. But true enhancements can be patented.

[Gary Ragatz]

This seems like largely a non-issue to me. I don't know much about patent law, and I don't know much about what intellectual property Mr. Thien and the followers of his blog may have developed over the years. But apparently, Mr. Thien never pursued patent protection for his ideas, so it doesn't seem that the Dustopper guy is infringing on Thien's rights by marketing the Dustopper.

If there's no infringement on someone else's patent, whether the Dustopper guy gets a patent or not is probably irrelevant - he has a product that he's commercialized and it's been adopted by a major retailer. He'll make money out of the deal, even if his patent application is denied. If someone else enters the market with a similar product, he'll still have the advantage of being the first in the market (and being in Home Depot). And even if he does get the patent, it won't prevent anyone from reading Thien's blog and building their own separator - as long as they don't try to sell it.

I do have some sympathy for Mr. Thien about having his ideas (or some variation of them) commercialized without him being involved. But at the same time, it seems that the Dustopper guy reached out to Mr. Thien some 2-1/2 years ago, clearly stating his interest in commercializing the technology, and inviting Mr. Thien's involvement, and Mr. Thien chose not even to reply to the Dustopper guy's email. Thien raising a stink about it at this point seems like "sour grapes."

[chase standifer]

Brice,

I completely agree, it all rides on how different his design is from Thien's and that is for the USPO to decide. I, like Gary, think this is much ado about nothing. He offered to rope Thien in on the project, received no reply; in the positive or negative and proceeded with his plan. Complaining about it now years after the fact and when the product is arguably different from Thien's seems a bit childish, especially when Thien has obviously never had any plans to profit off of what he has posted online.

[David Utterback]

Brice is correct about the individual claims made in the application are the basis for granting a patent. It is also required that the new knowledge in the claims is the direct result of discoveries by the applicant(s) and no one else. I do believe that a patent application may be submitted within 12 months of the release of information and documentation must be available. When I worked in a research laboratory, we were required to sign our lab books each time we made a dated entry in order to maintain documentation.

Chase,

If a person files for a patent and the patent office does their job correctly, they can only Claim ideas that are unique and which have not been revealed publicly before. So, in order to get a patent which cannot be challenged and struck down, they need to be claiming unique and novel differences from Prior Art (like Thein's and things shared in a public forum like this). They need to be careful and not be over-reaching and claiming other people's public domain ideas. Once something has been shared in a public domain, it cannot be patented by someone else. But true enhancements can be patented.

[Prashun Patel]

I have been using mine for a couple days now. I really appreciate the low profile and the included hose with 90 degree bend.

The only thing I do not like are the plastic tabs that lock it to the bucket. It’s takes some force to engage and remove. I hope they don’t break. I could rig a more easy to remove strap but much of the appeal was that I do not want to have to futz with making it better.

One complaint I have with the dust Deputy cyclones I have is that they require adapters or rigging to get shop vac hoses to fit. The duststopper fits out of the box.

[Prashun Patel]

Circling back to this. I have used it for a month. I don't think it's that great for what I do. The filter clogs quickly, relative to the Dust Deputy and Clear Vue mini I've used for years. However, the performance dropped way off when I started vacuuming plane shavings - and even router chips. I think it did a decent job of separating the chips, into the bucket, but it let much of the dust through. I wonder if the efficiency would stay higher if it was used as a dedicated sanding separator. Anyway, I switched back to my Dust Deputy. While I still dislike the height of the DD, it just works better for me.

[Chris Parks]

I am puzzled by Phil's reaction but I bet Phil isn't. He always thought he had invented the answer to everyone's dust problems and at no time should his ideas or testing results be questioned. He was forewarned of what was going to be done so he has no reason to get upset now. He could have marketed a kit through commercial channels and never did and I bet that is what hurts the most.

[Stan Calow]

I got a Dustopper a month ago and have been using it and comparing to the Dust Deputy I have been using for a few years. I like the mobility of the DS vs the DD, and it seems like it captures relatively more dust. However, the choice of shop vac (i.e., size) seems like it would be a big factor in maximum efficiency, and I don't see any guidance on that from either manufacturer.

[Wade Lippman]

Circling back to this. I have used it for a month. I don't think it's that great for what I do. The filter clogs quickly, relative to the Dust Deputy and Clear Vue mini I've used for years. However, the performance dropped way off when I started vacuuming plane shavings - and even router chips. I think it did a decent job of separating the chips, into the bucket, but it let much of the dust through. I wonder if the efficiency would stay higher if it was used as a dedicated sanding separator. Anyway, I switched back to my Dust Deputy. While I still dislike the height of the DD, it just works better for me.

8 or 9 years ago I built a Thien baffle and weighed the duct it collected compared to my DD. The Thien was fine on chips, but was terrible on dust. The collector bucket was actually better without the baffle. I published the results here and EVERYONE dumped on my for not seeing how great the Thien was. Nice to see someone finally got the same results; at least some of them.

[Prashun Patel]

I hope this doesn't open a can of worms, but Wade, I had a Thien separator for years on my dust collector for my table saw and bandsaw and it worked pretty well. I NEVER had to spank the filters on the DC clean. I think the Dust Stopper might just be too small relative to the shop vac as pointed out below.

Also, I suspect the Dust Stopper was working fine as a sanding dust separator. It was when I started vacuuming chips and shavings that I suspect it stopped working so well. The unit is so small (which is why it's so appealing) that I don't think it can process high volumes of solids well. This is just my hunch. The unit now sits in my garage. I will use it for sanding in the summer. But for the basement I still trust and love my Dust Deputy the best. Even vs the Clear Vue Mini I prefer it; the CV is a little taller, and the drop to the can is smaller in diameter. The CV can clog if you throw shavings at it. The DD does much better in this regard. I still find with ANY of these mini cyclones, it's best to sweep up as much as you can and then use it for the small stuff that's hard to reach.

They all 3 seem to work pretty well as sanding filters for my ROS sander.

[Prashun Patel]

Circling back to this. I have tried to use the dust stopper as a sanding preseparqtor. I am disappointed. Even on a small shop vac the bucket collapsed a little. So much dust made it through to the filter almost immediately and the suction was compromised very quickly.

Ymmv, but I will be throwing the baffle away, repurposing the bucket and using the elbow hose on my dust Deputy.

[Frank Pratt]

8 or 9 years ago I built a Thien baffle and weighed the duct it collected compared to my DD. The Thien was fine on chips, but was terrible on dust. The collector bucket was actually better without the baffle. I published the results here and EVERYONE dumped on my for not seeing how great the Thien was. Nice to see someone finally got the same results; at least some of them.

Missed this thread the first time around. One of the woodworking magazines did a comparison a few years ago between the small cyclone separators and various bucket top separators, including the Thien. Results were that the cyclones 'cleaned up' in the fine dust department.