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Thread: Crosscut Hand Saw Rehab

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN USA
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    80
    Yea this saw was pretty messed up when I got it. The tooth line also has a hollow along its length so the teeth in the middle are lower than the teeth at the toe and heel. The saw plate was not straight either. I managed to get it close to perfect by tapping the back here and there, doing George's crescent wrench trick, and various other little tweaks. When I place a straight edge on either side of the teeth along the tooth line I can only see tiny bits of light peeking through.

    I figure I'll re-cut the teeth, set, and sharpen to see how she cuts. If it tracks fine I will probably leave it.

    Thanks for the tips! This will be my first attempt at this

  2. #17
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Northeast PA
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    Here are some pics of a small No 7 panel saw I fettled for a friend some years ago. It's the only one I have pics of because he asked to see pics of the process, otherwise i probably wouldn't have taken any. Like yours the saw had a pronounced belly in the center of the toothline, and it was so deep I had to completely remove all the teeth to get it straight and file in new teeth from scratch. I used a cheap saw from a miter box that had the same tooth pitch (11ppi) to get marks for the tooth spacing.

    1/4" belly in center
    image (2).jpg

    jointed straight
    IMG_2271.jpg

    using 11ppi miter saw to mark gullet centers for new teeth
    IMG_2273.jpg


    Filing in new teeth
    IMG_2276.jpg

    Fleam angle filed in
    IMG_2278.jpg

    Thois last step was followed by another light jointing to ensure that all the teeth were the same height. It's not terribly hard but takes some practice. That backsaw looks like a perfect saw to practice on, good luck and post pics!
    ---Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny---

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN USA
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    80
    Brilliant tip, that! I've got an 11 TPI miter saw that I could use to mark the teeth too. I was thinking of doing a higher tooth count, though. This will be a 12" Tenon saw so should be rip. Maybe I should do like 13/14 TPI?

  4. #19
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Northeast PA
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    11 or 12 ppi is pretty standard for a tenon saw. Personally I'd keep with 11ppi, it strikes a nice balance between surface finish and cutting speed. When you get up around 14-16ppi you're in dovetail saw territory, and they are generally used in stock 3/4" thick or less. Higher tooth counts on a tenon saw can cause the gullets to load up because there are too many teeth engaged in the cut & the saw can choke.
    YMMV, of course.
    ---Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny---

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN USA
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    80
    Cool - thanks Brian - and good point...the tenons usually get cleaned up anyways so they don't need to have a super clean surface.

    Thanks for all of the tips! I'll post some pics when she's done

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN USA
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    80
    Quote Originally Posted by brian zawatsky View Post
    11 or 12 ppi is pretty standard for a tenon saw. Personally I'd keep with 11ppi, it strikes a nice balance between surface finish and cutting speed. When you get up around 14-16ppi you're in dovetail saw territory, and they are generally used in stock 3/4" thick or less. Higher tooth counts on a tenon saw can cause the gullets to load up because there are too many teeth engaged in the cut & the saw can choke.
    YMMV, of course.
    Hi Brian - I definitely ran into some issues doing this and haven't quite finished yet (mostly because the saw file I was using to do this finally reached it's end). I'm wondering where I went wrong. I filed all of the old teeth off and marked the new gullets with the miter saw I have. That worked great by the way!
    0125191516.jpg0125191535.jpg

    Then I started shaping the teeth:
    0127191541.jpg0127191541a.jpg

    The first couple of passes went fine as I kept the file with the same rake angle down the length of the saw.

    But then, on the third pass I started to bring the rake angle more vertical after the first two inches of the saw and teeth started to break off and not be the same height as the starter teeth. I'm assuming part of this was my file finally biting the dust - but also, should I wait longer to play with the rake geometry? Maybe I should file the entire thing with the same rake angle until the tooth is well defined and then do a quick pass with some steeper angle?

    Anyways, I have a brand new (and supposedly a better brand) file now and the saw plate back down flat with the gullets marked again. Any tips will be appreciated - thanks so much for the help!

    Tate

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    1,806
    Tate, don’t know why changing the rake angle slightly would cause teeth to break off. Are there rusty pits along the tooth line in those areas?

    Anyway, if in the future, you need a different ppi pattern, go to Blackburn Tools.com. Issac has a “articles and reference” section that includes tooth spacing patterns than can be printed out and taped over your saw. You do need to make sure that your printed copy is accuratly sized according to the scale on the pattern and may need to increase or decrease the print size percentage. Here’s an example of one of Issac’s patterns being used for retoothing a saw:

    DA50311D-9855-4A6F-B104-8D0B1E75BDD7.jpg

    He includes every ppi pattern you would ever want to do.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN USA
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    80
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Mueller View Post
    Tate, donít know why changing the rake angle slightly would cause teeth to break off. Are there rusty pits along the tooth line in those areas?

    Anyway, if in the future, you need a different ppi pattern, go to Blackburn Tools.com. Issac has a ďarticles and referenceĒ section that includes tooth spacing patterns than can be printed out and taped over your saw. You do need to make sure that your printed copy is accuratly sized according to the scale on the pattern and may need to increase or decrease the print size percentage. Hereís an example of one of Issacís patterns being used for retoothing a saw:

    DA50311D-9855-4A6F-B104-8D0B1E75BDD7.jpg

    He includes every ppi pattern you would ever want to do.
    Hi Phil - thanks for the tip here. I actually did try a paper pattern first but found it difficult to keep the file right on the line. And, yes, there is one small area of pitting on the tooth line but it's not even near where the teeth broke off...strange, right??

  9. #24
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Northeast PA
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    464
    I’m not sure what would cause the teeth to break off on you, could be a too-brittle saw plate, could be you were pushing too hard on the file. If you end up with teeth breaking off of your file, which happens with some brands (especially if you’re a bit heavy handed) the broken file teeth can snag on the saw plate, possibly causing the saw teeth to break. Best guess.

    You want to file in a consistent rake angle as you shape the teeth. If you want the first few inches of the saw to have a relaxed rake, then shape them that way right from the get go. Changing the rake angle after all the teeth have been shaped is bad practice, because it will lead to teeth of different sizes with uneven spacing.

    Don’t push the file too hard, you want nice smooth even strokes. Let the file do the work. The saw plate needs to be clamped tightly along 100% of its length, if it vibrates when you file into it you will get poor results. This actually could be a cause of your broken teeth also. Do you have your saw clamped between 2 block of wood? If so, you may want to add a 45 degree chamfer on the edge of the front block to allow you more comfortable access to the toothline.

    Finally what size size file are you using? It’s tough to tell from the pics but it looks as if it may be a bit too big.
    ---Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny---

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN USA
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    80
    Quote Originally Posted by brian zawatsky View Post
    Iím not sure what would cause the teeth to break off on you, could be a too-brittle saw plate, could be you were pushing too hard on the file. If you end up with teeth breaking off of your file, which happens with some brands (especially if youíre a bit heavy handed) the broken file teeth can snag on the saw plate, possibly causing the saw teeth to break. Best guess.

    You want to file in a consistent rake angle as you shape the teeth. If you want the first few inches of the saw to have a relaxed rake, then shape them that way right from the get go. Changing the rake angle after all the teeth have been shaped is bad practice, because it will lead to teeth of different sizes with uneven spacing.

    Donít push the file too hard, you want nice smooth even strokes. Let the file do the work. The saw plate needs to be clamped tightly along 100% of its length, if it vibrates when you file into it you will get poor results. This actually could be a cause of your broken teeth also. Do you have your saw clamped between 2 block of wood? If so, you may want to add a 45 degree chamfer on the edge of the front block to allow you more comfortable access to the toothline.

    Finally what size size file are you using? Itís tough to tell from the pics but it looks as if it may be a bit too big.
    Excellent tips, thanks Brian! I think the issue was pushing the file too hard as it was really getting dull. That one was was a 5" 2x slim from Nicholson. I threw it out.

    My replacement is a Simonds in the same size. I've heard bad things about the Nicholson files but it actually worked great to sharpen other saws it just reached it's end of life.

    My saw "vise" is just a 2 x 4 cut down the middle. Good idea on the chamber! I will build that in

    Anyways, I'm going to have another go at this tomorrow when the wife isn't home because, frankly, its loud haha.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Northeast PA
    Posts
    464
    The noise is an indication that your clamping mechanism needs some work. The file should not screech and squawk across the saw plate, it should be the smooth, easy pleasurable sound of a file smoothing metal. You won’t be able to produce acceptable results with a vise setup that allows the saw to vibrate. I’d spend some time trueing up your vise jaws, make sure they are jointed dead flat on both mating surfaces. Another thing you could do is to put a small shim between the two blocks at the bottom when you clamp them in. This will cause all the clamping force to be applied at the top edge where the saw plate needs to be gripped solidly. Even a 1/8” strip would do the trick if the clamp faces are jointed flat.
    Last edited by brian zawatsky; 02-02-2019 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Grammar
    ---Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny---

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Broadview Heights, OH
    Posts
    535
    Tate,

    Perhaps you didn't post the right picture in your thread, but I don't see any broken teeth on your saw. Honestly, while some claim the ultimate satisfaction in this exercise, and I've done it myself, once you do it once, do yourself a favor and just send it out to be mechanically retoothed. The teeth are fuflly formed, regular, even and ready to file. I've never observed teeth breaking off while filing, unless they were overset just before with the tooth already cracked. Perhaps that is the case here, but it doesn't sound like it.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN USA
    Posts
    80
    Thanks Brian! I've sharpened other saws that were very pleasurable to do, like the original one in this thread. It was quiet and meditative - very nice.

    With this one it must have been the file or maybe the fact that I'm not just sharpening but recutting teeth?

    Any rate, I will look at my setup and address any issues you mention and have a go at it. Thanks!

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Saint Paul, MN USA
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    Hey Pete - I think maybe I didn't take a pic of the section that had the broken teeth because I cant find any pics either!

    I hear you on getting it mechanically retoothed I wanted to do this once by hand to see if I could and to understand saws better

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Australia
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    2,352
    I hear you on getting it mechanically retoothed I wanted to do this once by hand to see if I could and to understand saws better

    Tate; you represent the reason why I no longer offer advise on how to manually shape and sharpen a new set of saw teeth. Regardless of what your going to hear from others, it does indeed take a great deal of practice to become proficient at manually shaping a new set of saw teeth, and if your starting objective is to try it once and move on, then imo it would make better sense to stop what your currently doing, take up Pete's advise, and send your saw out to be re-toothed by machine.

    regards Stewie;
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 02-02-2019 at 7:30 PM.

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