Levels for leveling a slider

[mark mcfarlane]

show us what you are doing, material on the table how wide it is, see the distance of table fence cutter etc. If you are running a style to a shaper cutter to cut a slot and its flat on the table should be fine, if your material is not straight or your table is not straight should still be fine if you are using a feeder or a feather board because pressure is holding it down.

Hi Warren. The CU300 spindle is very close to the sliding table. If you are shaping a long and wide board (even with a feeder because the wheels are going to be over both the cast and slider, unless you run very skinny wheels), the height of the sliding table at the spindle becomes important along the entire length of the slider. Wide boards don't 'see' the cast top, they ride on but slider, but skinny boards ride solely on the cast top.

[Warren Lake]

id have to see it get what you are saying. from what you said then id just make up something to go onto the table saw section close the cutter and run my style on top of it so the sliding table cant mess you up. Its an instand solution.

I think on my small sliding table you can just slide the table out of the way. realize you are talking shaper and not table saw blade and I dont know the machine.

Also define skinny, what width for the sliding table out of the equation? 2 or 3" or? Seems to me a sliding table set flush in ukse would not be a big deal, who cares if the material rubs on the saw table surface, main weight of anything heavy would be on the sliding table anyway.

[Dennis Yamamoto]

Mark,

You should first make sure that your cast iron table is flat with no twist. Use an accurate straightedge, feeler gauge and level like Brian Lamb's level for this.

You then need to make sure that the aluminum slider is coplanar to the cast iron, and rides at a consistent height above the cast iron. See the Felder User's Group, and review David Best's "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for Felder machines. I would guess that the adjustment for both the Minimax and Felder sliders is similar.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Dennis and Warren. I understand the need to level the cast and align the sider. This thread is about recommendations for less expensive but serviceable alternatives to Lamb Toolworks' or Starrett's $300 levels

[Warren Lake]

levelling my machine made zero difference to the top, the base is thick and strong you lift a corner others lift I was trying get that point accross its not a cabinet its not flexing and changing the top level makes no difference to my top being flat,

[Bill Dufour]

What is the floor structure? if it is wood you can not level it accurately and have it stay that way seasonaly. Are there provisions for hold down bolts or just supporting feet. What is the machine weight and how big are the pads under the leveling bolts to spread the load out.
Bill D.

[Greg R Bradley]

Thanks Dennis and Warren. I understand the need to level the cast and align the sider. This thread is about recommendations for less expensive but serviceable alternatives to Lamb Toolworks' or Starrett's $300 levels

See Peter Christensen post #9 on this:
https://www.shars.com/products/measu...ecisions-level

They are incredibly good for $100 and they appear to be on sale for $79. These seem to be as good as the SPI low end (Taiwan) 8" which is $180. However, it is 12" so make sure that fits your need. Shars also have an 8". I have the SPI high end (Swiss) 8" which is about $550 and a Chinese Military Surplus 4" I got from HJE. I have zero input on what works well leveling a slider as I have no experience with that.

Not a big fan of the Starrett 98 but that is the old standard. Lamb looks like an aluminum body with a Starrett 98 replacement or clone vial on top. Starrett sells replacements because that design is so easily broken.

SPI reference. Go to page 174: https://www.swissprec.com/catalog.html?pageLabel=C

[Jeff Heath]

Not a big fan of the Starrett 98 but that is the old standard. Lamb looks like an aluminum body with a Starrett 98 replacement or clone vial on top. Starrett sells replacements because that design is so easily broken.

What's not to like about a Starrett #98 machinists level? They are cast iron, and NOT aluminum, for a really good reason. Aluminum moves way too much to be of any quality for a long period of time. There's a reason why all the top manufacturers of machinists levels, camelback straightedges, etc....are made from cast iron. As far as being easily broken, I don't even know what that means. If you drop or knock any precision measuring equipment, it's going to not service you well. Handle it properly, and then store it properly (mine came with a very nice wooden case, padded inside) and there's nothing to worry about regarding breakage.

Incidentally, I wasn't recommending dropping $300 on a new one. I see them for sale all the time around $100, and I guess I was lucky when I found my bigger one for $75. It has serviced me very well for a decade.

If you are worried about the cost, buy a used one, get your machine set up, and then sell it.

The desire to have quality equipment, but then resist the necessary tools to support the investment properly, is mind boggling to me. The time spent messing up quality timbers alone is reason enough, to me, to always buy the best tools I can, and make sure I have them set up properly, the first time. An annual maintenance schedule of checking all my tools, equipment, greasing bearings, wiping and cleaning up, a fine tooth brush on gears to remove gunk and grime, etc......takes one day a year, and is the very best investment I can ever make in my shop gear to ensure that I can continue to produce high quality work without having to continually trouble shoot problems with my tools. Invest in quality, and cry once. I applaud Mark's desire to fine tune his machines to their highest capabilities. You don't have to break the bank open to invest in quality used precision tools to support your gear. When suggestions for support equipment from horror freight and chinese military surplus get mentioned, my stomach begins to churn in a very uncomfortable way. That stuff is junk, and should be sent back where it came from.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Warren. The CU300 spindle is very close to the sliding table. If you are shaping a long and wide board (even with a feeder because the wheels are going to be over both the cast and slider, unless you run very skinny wheels), the height of the sliding table at the spindle becomes important along the entire length of the slider. Wide boards don't 'see' the cast top, they ride on but slider, but skinny boards ride solely on the cast top.

Hi Mark, if I'm using a feeder the sliding table is locked in place so the height in relation to the spindle is fixed........Rod.

[Greg R Bradley]

What's not to like about a Starrett #98 machinists level? They are cast iron, and NOT aluminum, for a really good reason. Aluminum moves way too much to be of any quality for a long period of time. There's a reason why all the top manufacturers of machinists levels, camelback straightedges, etc....are made from cast iron. As far as being easily broken, I don't even know what that means. If you drop or knock any precision measuring equipment, it's going to not service you well. Handle it properly, and then store it properly (mine came with a very nice wooden case, padded inside) and there's nothing to worry about regarding breakage.

Incidentally, I wasn't recommending dropping $300 on a new one. I see them for sale all the time around $100, and I guess I was lucky when I found my bigger one for $75. It has serviced me very well for a decade.

If you are worried about the cost, buy a used one, get your machine set up, and then sell it.

The desire to have quality equipment, but then resist the necessary tools to support the investment properly, is mind boggling to me. The time spent messing up quality timbers alone is reason enough, to me, to always buy the best tools I can, and make sure I have them set up properly, the first time. An annual maintenance schedule of checking all my tools, equipment, greasing bearings, wiping and cleaning up, a fine tooth brush on gears to remove gunk and grime, etc......takes one day a year, and is the very best investment I can ever make in my shop gear to ensure that I can continue to produce high quality work without having to continually trouble shoot problems with my tools. Invest in quality, and cry once. I applaud Mark's desire to fine tune his machines to their highest capabilities. You don't have to break the bank open to invest in quality used precision tools to support your gear. When suggestions for support equipment from horror freight and chinese military surplus get mentioned, my stomach begins to churn in a very uncomfortable way. That stuff is junk, and should be sent back where it came from.

Think you misinterpreted my post in every way possible.

Did you miss the part where I own several Machinist Levels including an SPI? The SPI is similar to the Starrett 199, which is $900. Actually, I just sold 4 Starrett 98s.

A 98 was incredible in its day but that was a long time ago. There are better ways to make a level today that simply weren't available 100 years ago. Making a narrow/tall cast iron piece and then whacking it across a beam to make sure it doesn't contact in the middle was great, 75 years ago. Starrett improved on the design with the Master Level but people keep getting stuck on the "standard" without understanding the reason.

The Chinese Military Surplus is a fairly decent level that is a unique configuration. Short, with two small pads, so it is great for chasing small deviations like finding dips in a flat surface. Probably built for some special use.

Starrett seems to hold some magic to the name even when their products are not even close to good for the money. When I went through the equipment from a machine shop, we kept very little Starrett equipment. Great squares and vernier calipers but the mics all had to go. Just traded a set of Starrett 0-12" mics for just these two items:
TesaMaster.jpg
In case you are curious about the best micrometers available:
http://www.longislandindicator.com/p109.html

[Jeff Heath]

I don't understand where $900 levels and tenth's mics have anything to do with leveling Mark's table saw.

There are thousands of machinists that would disagree with you that Starrett tools aren't any good, and maybe a few woodworkers, too. Maybe your set of 0-12 mics wasn't taken care of. I have a full set of 436's up to 12", and a few bigger ones, bought as needed, and they measure accurately to a thousandth ever single time.....which is all they were designed to do. Sorry....off topic....this has nothing to do with leveling Mark's slider.

[mark mcfarlane]

Hi Mark, if I'm using a feeder the sliding table is locked in place so the height in relation to the spindle is fixed........Rod.

Thanks Rod, that sounds like a good idea that for some reason escaped me. This approach could also simplify the slider alignment with some practical compromises. OK, we are hijacking my thread on inexpensive but good levels.

[mark mcfarlane]

Shars Tools has one for $80 and is more than good enough for leveling woodworking machines. If you need to measure over a longer distance the master level sitting on top of a high quality level like a Sabila works.

https://www.shars.com/products/measu...ecisions-level

Does anyone know if the Shars 12" level has an adjustment on the main level. Their 8" level mentions the adjustment screw but not the 12", and I read somewhere that this feature is only on the 8" level.

Such a feature would be nice for this application, just 'zero' out the level on one end of the saw, and match it on the other.

12" would be ideal for me, that is the exact width of the cast top on my saw (not counting the j/p cast top that folds up.

[Peter Christensen]

I don't know about the screw but if you play with it you will likely never get it back to zero each direction. You defeat the purpose of such a precision instrument. Just set it down and read how many lines over the bubble is. Do the same at the other location. Now if it is too far out of level for that you put shims or feeler gauges under one end of it and do the same at the other location. If you want to level something like you're thinking get Beall Level Box or equivalent. The Shars level can detect the difference of a sheet of printer paper over a distance of 7 feet. That is what 0.005" over a foot equates to.

[Greg R Bradley]

The Shars 12" simply MUST be adjustable, like any machinist level. You do see where some Chinese or Indian or ?? manufacturer will design something without understanding how they work but the people at Shars understand the use of the tools. It's not Harbor Freight or eBay or Amazon.

I would suggest that you get some info on how you use a level for your slider. I'm not sure the 12" level fitting all the way across the bed is what you want. Machinist Levels are frequently used to find dips, valley, etc. on flat surfaces. Even the lower end Machinist Levels are rated for much higher accuracy than you could possibly need to level the entire machine. The low precision levels generally have each graduation on the vial corresponding to 0.005" per foot.

So a typical level will probably never need to be adjusted since you really need to know what you are doing to adjust it.