Just curious - who considers this woodworking?

[Jacob Reverb]

Of course its woodworking. Bizarre to try and retitle as something else.

Words are bad! Ideas even worse!

[Jacob Reverb]

Maybe we should call it "machine-assisted execution of a drawing" ... which is exactly what almost all of us do in our shops.

Did the machine make the drawing, too? Did the machine program itself?

[Derek Cohen]

PP Mobler and likely all the rest of the Danes have similar equipment. They’re trying to compete and retain profits as much as anyone else. They keep the quality up and so I think it’s good for them to use whatever method is available to remain viable.

In the ‘golden era’ they had hydraulic copy lathes turning out the chair parts. In my opinion it is hardly different from cnc other than being more difficult to setup.

So the process has looked very similar for about 70 years now.

I differentiate myself from large scale manyfacturing or medium scale, but I still admire it in many ways. It’s interetihg to see how things are made in a production environment.

Brian, you may recall that I posted a video of copy lathes used to build Hand Wegner's "The Chair" ...



The challenge was to then recreate the chair with hand tools.

I loved the irony of this ... that The Chair was probably made by Wegner in his shop with hand tools, and then machines were used to take the place of these .... and I recreated every joint as originally made with the machines with hand tools!

Mine's on the left, and the original is on the right ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

When you see chairs closer in timeline to the prototype you certainly see the progression from handmade to machine in that they’re trying to build the chair to appear neatly made off the machinery. That joint at the back changed at least one time. As you know cutting that long finger joint at the back is not something Wegner likely did with hand tools, so they started with something that looked closer to a true finger joint.

[Derek Cohen]

Brian, it is interesting that they referred to the final joint as a "dovetail". As you can see below, it is a V joint and close to, as you called it, a finger joint. This is a simple joint when made by machines (depicted in the video I posted). By hand it was a nightmare (as the level of accuracy was huge - the quality of the saw cuts only becomes apparent when all is cut aware from it when the arms are shaped) ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ole Anderson]

Rather than waxing eloquent, did anybody else notice how heavy some of those initial cuts were? Sharp tooling there.

[Frederick Skelly]

It's an argument that has been,and will be, debated as long as there is wood working.
The first time a machine took over a function previously performed by hand some 100+ years ago, there was this same debate. Heck, the spindle moulder killed an entire discipline of wood working virtually over night. Same with the Jointer and Planer, or Thicknesses, for the rest of the world.
Do I considering it "wood working"? Maybe not. But boy I sure can appreciate all of the human minds that went into the machine design, firmware, software, etc. to arrive at that point.
I actually think that machine is rather slow. Three minutes to make a single leg? It's going to take twelve minutes to make four legs. Martin Wassner made a door in 16 minutes and he was walking and talking at the same time.
Is there any less "soul" to that leg, than an individual stile of a cabinet door I've made on my shaper? I don't think so, because in the end it's the design and functionality of the final assemblage that matters most.

Is it cheating that Jim Becker is using a CNC machine to cut out tack trunk parts? Not to me it isn't. The final design evolved and was developed in Jim's mind. The CNC machine is just one of the tools that brings that design to fruition. No more, no less.
It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves. There definitely won't be consensus on the question.

These are all great points Mike and I saved a copy for future reference. Thank you! I keep asking myself, why is my using machines to reduce labor "woodworking", but the CNC machine in the video isn't woodworking?

For me, the difference between "woodworking" (a Craft, in my mind) and "manufacturing wooden products" is how much of the work is done by the machine. The CNC shaped that table leg with no hands-on human guidance to the tool, after the setup was calibrated. 3D modelling and programming are Crafts too. But to me, downloading a model for a machine to build is closer to manufacturing than woodworking. (I admit there's a gray area here.)

The person who uses those legs to build a table might be a woodworker - especially if he/she buys them to incorporate into a table they are making through a combination of machine work and human action/brainpower. But it's also possible that he/she just screws 4 legs onto a mostly CNC-made tabletop with little thought required (or permitted). Personally, I would consider that "labor" (nothing wrong with that), not "woodworking". I guess I'm drawing on the definition that Bill Adams mentioned above: "A person who works with their hands is a labourer. A person who works with their hands and their mind is a craftsman (craftsperson)."

Fred

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, it is interesting that they referred to the final joint as a "dovetail". As you can see below, it is a V joint and close to, as you called it, a finger joint. This is a simple joint when made by machines (depicted in the video I posted). By hand it was a nightmare (as the level of accuracy was huge - the quality of the saw cuts only becomes apparent when all is cut aware from it when the arms are shaped) ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

It could be the translation mixed up the terms, it’s practically the opposite of a dovetail. The important part is that it shapes well, I went through the same thing determining a joint for my chair, the joint needs to shape into the round well.

[Jim Becker]

I differentiate myself from large scale manyfacturing or medium scale, but I still admire it in many ways. It’s interetihg to see how things are made in a production environment.

What I admire about your work, Brian, is that you acknowledge and use machinery and even CNC to do those tasks where it makes sense while using your extensive knowledge and skilz with very sharp hand tools to add the finesse and finish that says "Brian" on each piece. That's craftsmanship all the way. And yes, scale does matter...those big name manufacturers absolutely need to use automation to be able to keep up with both demand and financial considerations. It doesn't take away from the final product in any way, IMHO.

[Jim Becker]

Derick, a very skilled man by the name of Russell Crawford just did some incredible 3D modeling in Aspire to be able to create a chair very similar to the Wegner on his CNC. He has mad skilz with the modeling and it's clearly permitted him to be able to offer a variety of chair designs that he can produce efficiently. And yes, there is still a lot of hand-work required because of the flowing nature of the joinery and finished contours but he has the time to be able to do that while his "big yellow shop assistant" is turning out the parts necessary for the next set.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, thanks for the name. I looked up Russell Crawford. He does impressive work. There is a "but".

His rocking chair is amazing when one realises that it is made in parts by machine ...



However, when you put aside one from Sam Maloof, which is hand made ...



... there are differences that are not subtle at all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

Yes, there are differences, but that may be both intentional and practical because of the method. "When" enters into things, too...as one gets more and more skilled with the modeling, things can get a lot more delicate. I assure you, if I designed a chair right now, it would likely resemble a stump with a board nailed to the back. LOL

[Art Mann]

The question is silly. There are hundreds of words in the English language that mean different things depending on the context. "Woodworking" is just one of them. If you want an accurate answer, you need to strictly define what you mean when you say the word. You are probably assuming that the word carries some connotation of individual craftsmanship but that isn't necessarily the case. Here is a similar example. You often hear people say they are "building" a new house. What they really mean is they are hiring someone else to build a house for them. I built two of the houses I have owned at least partly with my own hands and was the general contractor for the rest of the work. Should I correct them for their erroneous statement?

[Brian Holcombe]

What I admire about your work, Brian, is that you acknowledge and use machinery and even CNC to do those tasks where it makes sense while using your extensive knowledge and skilz with very sharp hand tools to add the finesse and finish that says "Brian" on each piece. That's craftsmanship all the way. And yes, scale does matter...those big name manufacturers absolutely need to use automation to be able to keep up with both demand and financial considerations. It doesn't take away from the final product in any way, IMHO.

Thank you, Jim! Much Appreciated!

[Kevin Beitz]

Do I consider it woodworking... Yes... Would I have pride in my work...Yes...

Why?

Because I build machines to do this. I made an CNC mill and the latest I
built was an Sawmill mounted wood lathe to cut octagon porch post.

Next project is an 12 ft X 8 ft overhead machine controlled router head...