Just curious - who considers this woodworking?

[Rich Engelhardt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFWX3EwnO14

Impressive - but - -I can bring myself to call this woodworking.

[Mike Ontko]

I kind of agree. It's more like manufacturing with a wood based material. I cringe when I see videos like this showing big production outfits mass producing pieces that were once produced by the likes of Wegner and Møbler. But then, you could say the same of any mass produced piece of art or craft that starts from an original, be it print work, sculpture, ceramics, even textiles.

[Jim Becker]

As individual woodworkers, we might be uncomfortable with "total automation" like that, but honestly, when you consider the mass market these days, it's the only way that stuff can be produced to be able to sell for the prices that consumers demand. So many folks really don't care how something is made as long as they can buy it at a lower price point. The method here isn't flawed for the purpose because it produces what is needed both physically and financially.

The other thing you have to consider is that many of us, even as individuals, are adopting some automated production techniques, using subtractive CNC or additive 3D printing to make stuff. The reasons are many for that. Good design is still good design and which tools we choose to use merely reflects our preference for how to execute our designs.

[marlin adams]

As a individual I would not own something like that unless I just really had money to burn . But have to agree with Jim somewaht if I own a small woodworking shop as a business and maybe working by myself or have maybe 1-2 others working for me I would get something like that to run parts like table legs and such. I would still have to create the files on what I want that leg to look like and beable to make a set of 4 to all look alike so I can concentrate on the top or skirt or what ever else that goes into make that said piece.

[Mike Cutler]

It's an argument that has been,and will be, debated as long as there is wood working.
The first time a machine took over a function previously performed by hand some 100+ years ago, there was this same debate. Heck, the spindle moulder killed an entire discipline of wood working virtually over night. Same with the Jointer and Planer, or Thicknesses, for the rest of the world.
Do I considering it "wood working"? Maybe not. But boy I sure can appreciate all of the human minds that went into the machine design, firmware, software, etc. to arrive at that point.
I actually think that machine is rather slow. Three minutes to make a single leg? It's going to take twelve minutes to make four legs. Martin Wassner made a door in 16 minutes and he was walking and talking at the same time.
Is there any less "soul" to that leg, than an individual stile of a cabinet door I've made on my shaper? I don't think so, because in the end it's the design and functionality of the final assemblage that matters most.

Is it cheating that Jim Becker is using a CNC machine to cut out tack trunk parts? Not to me it isn't. The final design evolved and was developed in Jim's mind. The CNC machine is just one of the tools that brings that design to fruition. No more, no less.
It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves. There definitely won't be consensus on the question.

[Ron Citerone]

We are all Neanderthals now!

[Jacob Reverb]

If not woodworking, I'm not sure what word or phrase you'd use...automated CNC wood machining?

[Brad Barnhart]

In some ways, I would tend to agree, in others not so much. Like Mr. Jim said, folks in today's modern ways of life really truthfully do not care or have the first clue how their home furnishings are designed or created, just as long as it is within their budget, and has the looks and style they want.

I personally would not have any purpose for such a beast like that in my shop. If I ain't able to design it with the tools I have available to me in my shop, I figure it won't get done here. Like Mr. Mike mentioned, do I hold it agin' the feller what has a CNC, or creates his projects on his computer, no, I don't. If he feels comfortable using his mind that way, get right after it.

Personally, I am no artist, nor a computer tech, so everything I create is designed in my head. From the list of materials down to measurements and curves, etc. I have always done things that way. To them fellers that have the creativity to design a machine like that, kudos to them!

In the meantime, I don't think it is goin' to pester me or my small wood business out here on the plains of NW Kansas in any way, shape, or form. I'll just keep on keepin' on.

[Gary Ragatz]

In some ways, I would tend to agree, in others not so much. Like Mr. Jim said, folks in today's modern ways of life really truthfully do not care or have the first clue how their home furnishings are designed or created, just as long as it is within their budget, and has the looks and style they want.

I see this sort of comment about furniture buyers crop up on this forum pretty regularly, and I don't think it's quite accurate or quite fair. Pretty much everyone who's not Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos has to make some budget-related trade-offs in life. If someone buys a less-expensive product, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't understand or don't appreciate the tangible differences between products - but they have to prioritize.

My wife and I built a new home a couple of years ago. Prior to moving, we gave most of our furniture to our son and his family, who were moving into a larger home. So, at our new place, we had a lot of furnishing to do. I do some woodworking myself, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of what it takes to produce fine wood furniture. In our home, you'll find an $8,000 Amish-made bedroom suite in the master, and you will also find a guest bedroom I affectionately refer to as the "Ikea suite," furnished for about $600. I'm happy with both purchases and, to tell you the truth, the "Ikea suite" is perfectly functional, at least two years in. This doesn't mean we wouldn't like to have fine furniture throughout the house, but that will take some time - until we can afford it and/or I have time to make it.

Maybe it would be appropriate to turn the issue around, and ask how many of the folks who post here have tailor-made shirts or suits in their closets? Original oil paintings on their walls? The finest china and lead crystal in their kitchens?

[Jon Grider]

Impressive, but not inspiring. It is what it is and that's where we're at. I wonder how many legs that machine has to puke out to pay the six figure cost of owning and programming it. I suppose my tailed tools may be an abomination to some hand tool only craftsmen though.
Can't say technology always thrills me. Next we'll have computer self driven Corvettes.

[glenn bradley]

Meet George Jetson,
Jane his wife,
Daughter Judy . . .

[Frederick Skelly]

It's an argument that has been,and will be, debated as long as there is wood working.
The first time a machine took over a function previously performed by hand some 100+ years ago, there was this same debate. Heck, the spindle moulder killed an entire discipline of wood working virtually over night. Same with the Jointer and Planer, or Thicknesses, for the rest of the world.
Do I considering it "wood working"? Maybe not. But boy I sure can appreciate all of the human minds that went into the machine design, firmware, software, etc. to arrive at that point.
I actually think that machine is rather slow. Three minutes to make a single leg? It's going to take twelve minutes to make four legs. Martin Wassner made a door in 16 minutes and he was walking and talking at the same time.
Is there any less "soul" to that leg, than an individual stile of a cabinet door I've made on my shaper? I don't think so, because in the end it's the design and functionality of the final assemblage that matters most.

Is it cheating that Jim Becker is using a CNC machine to cut out tack trunk parts? Not to me it isn't. The final design evolved and was developed in Jim's mind. The CNC machine is just one of the tools that brings that design to fruition. No more, no less.
It's up to the individual person to decide that for themselves. There definitely won't be consensus on the question.

These are all great points Mike and I saved a copy for future reference. Thank you! I keep asking myself, why is my using machines to reduce labor "woodworking", but the CNC machine in the video isn't woodworking?

For me, the difference between "woodworking" (a Craft, in my mind) and "manufacturing wooden products" is how much of the work is done by the machine. The CNC shaped that table leg with no hands-on human guidance to the tool, after the setup was calibrated. 3D modelling and programming are Crafts too. But to me, downloading a model for a machine to build is closer to manufacturing than woodworking. (I admit there's a gray area here.)

The person who uses those legs to build a table might be a woodworker - especially if he/she buys them to incorporate into a table they are making through a combination of machine work and human action/brainpower. But it's also possible that he/she just screws 4 legs onto a mostly CNC-made tabletop with little thought required (or permitted). Personally, I would consider that "labor" (nothing wrong with that), not "woodworking". I guess I'm drawing on the definition that Bill Adams mentioned above: "A person who works with their hands is a labourer. A person who works with their hands and their mind is a craftsman (craftsperson)."

Fred

[Brian Holcombe]

I kind of agree. It's more like manufacturing with a wood based material. I cringe when I see videos like this showing big production outfits mass producing pieces that were once produced by the likes of Wegner and Møbler. But then, you could say the same of any mass produced piece of art or craft that starts from an original, be it print work, sculpture, ceramics, even textiles.

PP Mobler and likely all the rest of the Danes have similar equipment. They’re trying to compete and retain profits as much as anyone else. They keep the quality up and so I think it’s good for them to use whatever method is available to remain viable.

In the ‘golden era’ they had hydraulic copy lathes turning out the chair parts. In my opinion it is hardly different from cnc other than being more difficult to setup.

So the process has looked very similar for about 70 years now.

I differentiate myself from large scale manyfacturing or medium scale, but I still admire it in many ways. It’s interetihg to see how things are made in a production environment.

[Zac wingert]

Whatever it is called, you wouldn’t make something with that machine and give it to your family memeber/friend/neighbor as a gift for a special occasion and feel the same pride/sentimental value type feeling.

But you think if the woodworkers or craftsmen of 100 years ago had access to such technology, they would turn it down or use it??

[Derek Cohen]

PP Mobler and likely all the rest of the Danes have similar equipment. They’re trying to compete and retain profits as much as anyone else. They keep the quality up and so I think it’s good for them to use whatever method is available to remain viable.

In the ‘golden era’ they had hydraulic copy lathes turning out the chair parts. In my opinion it is hardly different from cnc other than being more difficult to setup.

So the process has looked very similar for about 70 years now.

I differentiate myself from large scale manyfacturing or medium scale, but I still admire it in many ways. It’s interetihg to see how things are made in a production environment.

Brian, you may recall that I posted a video of copy lathes used to build Hand Wegner's "The Chair" ...



The challenge was to then recreate the chair with hand tools.

I loved the irony of this ... that The Chair was probably made by Wegner in his shop with hand tools, and then machines were used to take the place of these .... and I recreated every joint as originally made with the machines with hand tools!

Mine's on the left, and the original is on the right ...



Regards from Perth

Derek