Shapeoko 3 XXL

[Patrick Kane]

Looking at a near new shapeoko XXL model localy, and im wondering if this machine is worth the trial run that so many new CNCers talk about. If i can get it for a reasonable price, i assume i can use it for 6-12 months and resell it for roughly the same i paid for it. Before i do that, i want to confirm im not buying myself a headache. Im looking at a trim router and belt drives and thinking, "ugh, but most of the online community seems to think this is an acceptable hobbyist machine. Im content with slow feed rates, minimal depth of cut, and generally all the limitations associated with a 1/4" bit powered by a teeny trim router. Im asking for input on the reliability and calibration of the machine(i do not want to jerk around with this machine for hours and hours), and if a machine of this build quality will give me a real taste of working with CNC routers. What i mean by that latter half is does this thing suck bad enough to turn me away from one day investing in a legit machine.

I know, i know, i should buy my second machine first, but in my eyes, i would want the second machine to be ATLEAST 4x4 with an aircooled spindle, and truthfully, i wouldnt be content with that either. The topic seems like pulling on a loose thread of a sweater. Before you know it, the only acceptable choice is a 5x12 machine with vacuum bed that costs as much as a house. If i had a bunch of business lined up for a CNC machine, id have no problem plopping 15-20k on a proper machine. Maybe one day i will put one to work, but for now im mostly interested in basic functions, familiarizing myself with modeling and CAD softwares(self taught myself rhino in college, but that was a loonnng time ago), and just generally experimenting. This is opposite of every other tool purchase in my shop. They were all purchased with business in mind, and increasing efficiency and profitability. I might get there one day with a CNC router.

[Bill George]

There is someone on here that knows and is a dealer sort of, he might pop in and answer. Usually starter or learning machines do not sell for much used as the market is somewhat limited except to learn on. I guess for me it would depend on the price. Does it come with VCarve Pro or Desktop license transfer?

I have a decent 4x4 machine and its built heavy. If I had the room it would be a 4x8 but I don't so I use what I have. Good luck!

[Jim Becker]

It's a decent machine for hobby use, so if it's in good condition and the price is right, I see no harm at all in acquiring it and getting to know CNC. Their base design/toolpathing software is really basic, but you can use other applications with the machine for design when you feel you need to move up on that.

Oh, and you are correct that if money were no object...LOL...it would be a really big machine coming in the door. I have a 4x4 and sometimes wish I would have found a way to squeeze in a bigger one. Heh...heh...

[Mark Bolton]

You walk yourself through every pro and con of the conversation in your panic to justify the purchase. We all do the exact same thing whether its a 1K purchase or a 100K purchase.

The conversation becomes what do you personally want out of the machine and what are you potentially willing do deal with out of the machine to get close to your initial pursuit? Its just that simple

If you are thinking about developing your CNC skills with a low dollar machine and making a bit of money in anticipation of your money maker machine in the future you'd better not be looking at a CNC. In 5 years CNC's will be relegated to a very small percentage of the market. Lasers will get more powerful, robotics will get more affordable, and CNC's will become the table saw of the wood world. So thats where your at.

I would think investing in a machine that is basically a toy is a waste at this point as fast as tech is moving unless you can buy it for a penny on the dollar.

Entering into that CNC world your going to be competing with ding-a-lings who have invested in a desktop CNC and are selling product on the open market that they set up to run before bed and unload off the machine when they wake up (if the house doesnt burn down) and they thing they are profitable because they were sleeping.

Profitability in the wood CNC world at this point means on average you must be able to get small saleable parts off the CNC in single digit minutes. Not 11 minutes, 9, 8, 7, 6. Unless you have a super cool product that has some hard to figure out machining (still a joke) or some sort of defendable patent (and the cash to back up that patent), you will be dead to the pinterest world. You'll be knocked off in seconds and looking for the next one.

If you want to have fun then have at it. If your looking to future profitablity, your about 3 miles behind the 8 ball.

[Patrick Kane]

No, the price is absolutely not right. She wants $1800 or thereabouts for it. It does have some added accessories, but im not paying retail for this level machine. Heck, i bought my Felder 65%+ off retail... However, at $1300, i dont think i would have much or any downside in the machine. From what i see on their forum and across craigslist, these things appear to hold their own on the used market. Honestly, even the xcarves do well on the used market, and ive always perceived those to have a so-so level of satisfaction across the maker community.

With my current layout, i can put this size machine under and inbetween my two table saws. If I get a proper machine with a 4x4+ bed, then i really cant fit it in my workspace and it needs to make a permanent home in the attached one car garage. If I end up going this route, then i might as well swing for the fences, because it would mean im running dedicated electrical out there, setting up a dedicated dust collector for it, and generally transforming my garage into a CNC room. Whether its a 2x4 or a 4x4, or a 5x12, the end result will be the same.

Long story short, i once spent $4k on a TON of used turning stuff. Guy's wife was sick, and he was selling his whole collection to spend more time with her. Turns out i dont like turning. Ive since parted out a lot of that stuff and keep a nova comet in the corner for small tasks. I dont want to repeat that same mistake with a CNC router.

[Jim Becker]

While CNC machines do tend to hold value, that's, um...a bit way over the top! Sheesh...

Figure that for a 4x4 cutting bed, you'll need about 7' by 5.5' for the machine plus space around two or three sides to be able to comfortably use it. (plus a place for the computer you'll be using with the machine) I know that for a fact since that's the size I have. So yea...if you're going to create a new space, make it so you can go with a machine that can accommodate a full sheet of material. The incremental investment between a high quality 4x4 and a 4x8 isn't huge, either. It's mostly a matter of space and I wish I would have found a way now that I'm using the machine for almost every project, paid or otherwise. Cutting small things on a big machine is easy. Not so much the other way around.

[William Adams]

Depending on where you are and how much shipping is and which accessories are included that might be reasonable. Machine prices are all on the Carbide 3D website, but note some of our resellers offer free shipping. This is a hobbyist class machine though, with belts, and the tradeoffs which that entails, but the principles of operation are the same as for larger / more powerful machines, so what one learns will apply elsewhere.

(ob. discl. I'm the company rep. mentioned and work for Carbide 3D as off-site tech support and am a long-time project volunteer (it started out as open source) and freelancer)

The idea that CNCs will become widely available is an interesting one --- there're going to have to be some major breakthroughs in software for that to happen, but the company behind Festool seems to be betting on that with their purchase of the Shaper Origin. Not sure how much cheaper the machines can become --- aluminum extrusion with integrated V rails seems the most affordable linear motion option and doesn't seem to be coming down in price, similarly, steel plates while cheap get a little pricey when one demands that holes be placed precisely on them, and motors and motion systems have been creeping up in price since China became the largest (only?) manufacturer.

Feeling a little pessimistic, since I'm currently trying to work through the trigonometry of cutting the four sides of a box with joinery and all other features in a single setup (no 90 degree fixture) and with only 2 or 3 tool changes.

[Jim Becker]

William, he was looking at a used one which is why the price asked wasn't acceptable.

[William Adams]

Right, but the price presumably doesn't include the need for shipping, and if living in an area where that was expensive, might make things more palatable, also if outside the U.S., not paying for customs / tariffs may help.

[Bill George]

CNC is far from dead. There is a place for both lasers and CNC. Robotics and CNC go hand in hand, having been involved in high tech while teaching the 12 years before retirement I saw our Tool & Die CNC and CAD departments growing in size. A major employer here in town doubled the size of their injection mold making department and used our students after graduation.

Home based or businesses ran from the home are projected to expand according to what I have read. There is a shortage of skilled machinists, tool and die and most of the skilled trades. Schools took out the shops and sold off all the machines because the future was designing websites! Now that void needs to be filled.

If you can learn and operate CNC machines or other needed skills your job opportunities open wider.

[Patrick Kane]

All good points, Mark. Im sure you sensed my hesitation concerning the build quality and price point of the particular machine in question. To reiterate, i have no intentions of going in to this with aspirations of income. I know that is a big part of why people are interested in the field--automated side income. I still dont have a clear vision of products and services people are providing to earn all of their cash. Jim is one of the few guys that i understand why he invested in his machine, and it makes logical and economic sense to me. He had the business demand in place already, and his camaster makes certain parts more effectively. Most others give the impression they are churning and burning, but that is a subjective thing. Aside from signs, i assume they are making trinkets and knick knacks. Theres nothing wrong with that, but im not motivated to monkey around with a bunch of $30 items. Like you say, that is stuff you need to be making in mere minutes for it to make sense. Finally, and maybe most importantly, i already produce a solid income out of my shop each year. This is something ive done for the last 5+ years, and im starting to ease off the gas a little. I have most of the tools i could ever want/dream of, and with my career taking off i dont think ill be that concerned with the extra income in the next year or two. On top of it, my wife wants to start a family, and shop time will be ever decreasing. Very long story for me to say, i dont see myself making money off the machine. Im sure you are correct that things will drastically change in 5-10 years, but that is a long way away for me. In the event there is a dramatic paradigm shift, then i will happily gobble up a fantastic ten year old industrial CNC for pennies.

Jim, exactly. That is why I dont want to buy a proper machine at the moment. In order to house a stout 2x4 or 4x4, i really need to have it in the garage. Like i said, the moment i make that decision, i cant park a car in there anymore. We dont do it often, but we do park in the garage when im not spraying finish. Any size CNC in there will make that impossible, which is why i said i might as well get a 4x8 if im going to transform the garage for that sole purpose. haha that is the same reasoning and train of thought people gave me for going to a big university--you can make a big school small(small/unique major, select group of friends etc), but you cant make a small school big.

William, i am fine with a bit of bias as long as its well intended, and seeing as you openly disclosed your conflicts im guessing it is well intended. I think ive read some of your other posts, and i sense you are passionate on the subject. Do you have a shapeoko machine? I primarily want to start using CAM/CAD software again and see if this is something i enjoy doing, or if it will feel like im in architecture school again. I see myself doing mostly engraving lettering, numbering etc. and cutting 1/4" plywood for templates. Im not expecting to slap down 3/4" sheet goods and set it to work. That is what my hands and the slider are for. With that said, i am setup as a small pro shop, and i expect things to work for me and not the other way around. In your opinion, is this a good starter machine for light machining in thin woods and plastics?

[bobby milam]

I'm not sure about what's included in the original vs the sellers price but generally speaking, when you are looking at machines at the lower end of the market, NEW, they don't come with a computer, software, bits, etc. Software like vectrics vcarve adds around $600 and up. That is probably why you are seeing them "hold their prices". When you compare it to something like a Camaster, those machines come with the computers already set up and software in the package price.

[Mark Bolton]

Im not insinuating that a CNC that can replace a table saw will be $750 dollars in 5 years. Moreso that more and more people (not even woodworkers by hobby or trade) have, and will more than ever have, a cnc, a 3D printer, and so on which is currently, and will continue to exponentially dilute the marketplace. Not looking to that market in any way opens your options greatly because as you say when your looking at that consumer market your needing low single digit cycle times and even then its likely not going to balance out in the spread sheet.

All you have to do is look at all the shops with a Kuka in them now. I will almost guarantee you that is not far off for many given you can pick up a well maintained used 7 axis machine for sub 20K and probably have it online for very little more proportionately.

I dont mean to sound cynical or pessimistic. It sounds like your intent and expectations of a machine are right in line with where your looking. I have a hard time getting my head around the use of a small machine but just the other day on our local craigslist popped up a barely used oliver 1013 fully assembled that only ran a couple jobs for 500 bucks and thought "that thing would be handy to have in the corner" as I always hate setting up small jobs on the router.

Sounds like your in the camp to scour the interwebs and be patient for the juicy one that pops up and you can snatch for the pennies on the dollar. For the light work your talking about it would seem an easy search with patience.

[William Adams]

Yes, I've had one each of Shapeokos since buying a v1 off eBay, getting an SO2 in exchange for doing the assembly instructions, and then an SO3 and later an XL upgrade as a thank you for working on the project. I also have a Nomad 883 Pro which I was given shortly after beginning working for the company as off-site tech support staff.

If you search on the Carbide 3D forums for "Hardcore Aluminum milling on an S3" and "Making a Stainless Steel Watch Case and Back on the Shapeoko 3 (Start to Finish)" and "Chippendale (Newport RI) Desk Legs" I believe you'll be surprised by the capabilities of the machine.

You could start learning the things which you wish by just getting a free program --- we offer Carbide Create for free and don't overtly tie it to our machines --- and setting up files, making G-Code and then previewing them using a tool such as CAMotics or GrblGru. We have a standing offer on Carbide 3D's support e-mail that if folks get stuck on a file or project they can send it in and we'll do our best to work through it with them (that's where a number of our tutorials have come from).

While using a vector editor such as Inkscape as a front-end makes Carbide Create able to do most things, it's far more direct to just get Vectric Vcarve.

Material removal rates in wood are decent, and can be quite fast in plastics, depending on the endmill.

[Art Mann]

Back in about 1985, my wife decided to start a home visual design business using a microcomputer, the new "Pagemaker" page layout software, a flat bed scanner, a digital camera, "Illustrator" vector illustration software and a laser typesetter. At that time, all these products were new, innovative and quite expensive. She enjoyed a good measure of success. As time went by, all these items became cheaper so that any office could afford to own and use them. We thought it would spell the end of her business and several clients initially went the do-it-yourself publishing route. Over time, most of these people abandoned their efforts and came back. She closed the business because she didn't want the hassle of dealing with customers directly, not due to lack of work. The existence of these resources simply made it easier and more convenient for untalented people to produce easily recognizable crap. Talent and skill were (and are) her unique assets, not equipment. I see the same thing happening in the CNC router woodworking world today. Crappy products have never been so easy to create but real talent is worth as much as it ever was. I have seen a lot of CNC router made product on the internet but most of it I wouldn't carry home for free.

As far as a CNC router replacing a table saw and other woodworking equipment, I just don't see it. I used mine to do a lot of standard woodworking jobs initially but have gone back to more conventional methods recently because they are often quicker and easier. A computer controlled spindle is not the best way to do a lot of things, even though it can be made to do them.