Shapeoko 3 XXL

[William Adams]

As a person who lived through the "Desktop Publishing Revolution" I couldn't agree more.

FWIW, my having a CNC machine may have somewhat diminished my desire to have a planer or jointer, but it's made me want a bandsaw even more, but it's a tedious work-around using the CNC to surface / prep stock.

I'm curious to see how the software angle will shake out --- Autodesk is putting a lot behind Autodesk Fusion 360, and I'm still surprised by Google dropping SketchUp, and surprised that there hasn't been more of a push on making it useful for woodworking and so forth --- and now the Solidworks folks have a "Maker" license. Vectric buying the folks behind "Design and Make" while inevitable, was still a bit surprising to me.

I just wish there were more accessible ways to teach good design, and it kills me that society esteems it so little and actively decides against teaching basic skills such as cursive penmanship which help people to appreciate it.

[Jim Becker]

William, it's true that Google eschewed SketchUp, but it was picked up by Trimble. The emphasis is more "online" like with Fusion 360, particularly for "Free" users, however.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

Anyone purchasing a CNC thinking they can start making money with it is sadly mistaken.
The exception would be if you already had an established product, and the CNC would allow you to make it faster/easier.
There just aren't many items that can be made from start to finish on a CNC router.

A CNC is just another tool, and quite often, it's not the best tool for the job.
You can learn the process on just about any machine, and many people can do some nice work on them, if they are patient. When you see really nice work, it's due to the person doing the work. CNC's only do what you tell them to.

It's taken 15 years for hobby CNC to get to where it is today, and it's still in it's infancy. It's not going anywhere, in 5 years, let alone 10-15.
I've been using industrial CNC routers for over 20 years, and very little has changed between our first machine in 1997 and brand new machines today. Robots and lasers are not going to be taking over the CNC world, for many reasons.

[Mark Bolton]

It's not going anywhere, in 5 years, let alone 10-15.
I've been using industrial CNC routers for over 20 years, and very little has changed between our first machine in 1997 and brand new machines today. Robots and lasers are not going to be taking over the CNC world, for many reasons.

Agreed and kind of to my point. I wasnt insinuating that cnc is dead, dying, or will be an outdated process anytime soon. I was speaking more towards the small to mid level maker space/small shop space. Technology is advancing exponentially faster each year, its not a doomsday scenario, it just is what it is. Even in 3 axis CNC there have be vast advancements in 20 years though the core is the same, x, y, and z, and a spinny thing. You look now at small scale 5 axis becoming reasonably affordable, additive manufacturing, being able to 3D print parts in stainless and so on. Combined with affordable robotics, there are desktop Kuka style robots in play now and youll likely be seeing the smaller series of production size machines popping up more an more in "average" shops because they are affordable. Heck the SCMI and other manufacturers lean cells now that feed and off load the cnc, horizontal bore, feed the bander, barcode and stack parts, and even do some assembly and feeding a case clamp. All with a single or two programmers and a mechanic.

Its definitely not going anywhere (CNC) but its moving faster than ever which is only normal.

[Bill George]

There is always going to be a need for small shops to do the jobs the big companies with lots of overhead can't or will not bother with or to be just sub-contractors. In Michigan close to where my wife has relatives there within a 100 miles or less to Detroit there are/were lots of small mom and pop CNC shops making parts for the automotive industry.
Most of the shops I drive by were either large garages or metal buildings behind the house in a small town or acreage. My wife has a nephew who is very talented in CNC and metal fab worked at one on M60 west of Jackson.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

Heck the SCMI and other manufacturers lean cells now that feed and off load the cnc, horizontal bore, feed the bander, barcode and stack parts, and even do some assembly and feeding a case clamp. All with a single or two programmers and a mechanic.

I don't consider these to be affordable, unless the shop is making upwards of $5 million a year. We've been shopping for a replacement for our 11 year old Mobidelli, and a comparable new machine is in the $180K range, for a 5x12 router with automatic loading and unloading. Start adding more automation and you can easily get to $300K-$500K.

While 5 axis machines are more affordable, they work best for very specific applications. For most standard work, a 3 axis machine is much faster and half the price.

[richard newman]

Getting back to the OP, it looks like the Shapeoko could be a fine entry level machine for you. The price may be on the high side, but if they hold their value that well, you can probably get back a good part of your investment back if you step up to bigger/better machine, or decide to just punt. The support seems really good, and that will make a huge difference in your experience.

The most important thing is to get going with something, no matter what it is you'll learn tons and will soon figure out if cnc is for you, and what you might want/need to do with it.

[Jim Becker]

I don't disagree that it's a nice machine for entry-level, but with the asking price for the used machine being so close to the "buy it new" price...I'd buy it new, honestly, if it was the right choice for the OP. Retained value is one thing, but that's pushing things, IMHO, for a kit machine. For a heavier machine, it might be more reasonable for something that's very lightly used or in nearly new condition with all the toys.

[Jerome Stanek]

I don't disagree that it's a nice machine for entry-level, but with the asking price for the used machine being so close to the "buy it new" price...I'd buy it new, honestly, if it was the right choice for the OP. Retained value is one thing, but that's pushing things, IMHO, for a kit machine. For a heavier machine, it might be more reasonable for something that's very lightly used or in nearly new condition with all the toys.

The same should apply to the make machine you have but on the forum people are asking almost the same as what they pay for it based on what is said about being built like a tank and not having to wait for one. Sellers are a little put off if someone offers less.

[Mark Bolton]

I don't consider these to be affordable, unless the shop is making upwards of $5 million a year. We've been shopping for a replacement for our 11 year old Mobidelli, and a comparable new machine is in the $180K range, for a 5x12 router with automatic loading and unloading. Start adding more automation and you can easily get to $300K-$500K.

While 5 axis machines are more affordable, they work best for very specific applications. For most standard work, a 3 axis machine is much faster and half the price.

I dont consider it affordable either and I agree that 5 axis just as Kuka 7 axis have very specific manufacturing advantages that dont cross apply to someone breaking down cabinet parts. The point is that the past 20 years you reference of s "static" (in your mind state) of CNC is, at least for 3 axis, going to remain static other than advancements in software, spindle and hardware tech, and so on. I am not a 20 year veteran of CNC but in my rudimentary observation, other than XY and Z and spinny thing, I dont see anything "static" or unchanged with regards to CNC in the last 20 years and the machines we all see for sale due to upgrades would speak to that clearly.

But again, based on the small shop (as much as I hate the term) "maker" space, you are likely going to see 7 axis robotics in the next 5 years. We are not talking about robots or lasers "taking over the world" in some diabolical destruction of the small shop manufacturing sector. You are already seeing small maker space sintering on mass. My point is that if you are looking for a "machine" to do something "with" that your not really looking to make money with (smart), a small 3 axis is great if you can buy one that isnt more headache than its worth, for cheap. If your budget is a little higher? I might be looking towards a different envelope to play around with something that will be viable when I get my feet on the ground.

There is always going to be the need for those of us slogging out boxes and metal parts with a three, four, or five, axis machine for the few that want something different and the non standard jobs. But the big boys are already paying for, and implementing, the lean cells you say are too expensive. Doesnt mean Im rolling over. The comments from those guys are endless with regards to the problems off the edge bander because its a "sleeping pill" for a biological life form. The robot puts the part it exactly right, exactly straight, and at exactly the right feed rate, every time, all day, and all night (and likely does another operation or two while its waiting).

[Martin Wasner]

I don't consider these to be affordable, unless the shop is making upwards of $5 million a year. We've been shopping for a replacement for our 11 year old Mobidelli, and a comparable new machine is in the $180K range, for a 5x12 router with automatic loading and unloading. Start adding more automation and you can easily get to $300K-$500K.

While 5 axis machines are more affordable, they work best for very specific applications. For most standard work, a 3 axis machine is much faster and half the price.

I was told well north of a million to pull sheets from a pen, put them through a table router, auto unload, conveyor to a bander that returns and spins, then a robot binning parts for assembly.

That ain't happening for shops like mine.

The lights out cabinet shop is a long ways off if you do anything with hardwood. Doable with panel stock though, but you better have a lot of capital on tap

[Martin Wasner]

As a reference, I paid a bit more than I thought I should, but my Weeke was $45k used with 240 hours on the spindle. The tech that did the start up for me said it's a $120k router new. I paid less than half. For a consumer grade, I wouldn't pay over 25%. People are stupid and machines with as many components as a cnc router need diligent maintenance.

Used rail machines can be picked up for almost scrap value. But you'll need some real estate and power to make that happen.

[Patrick Kane]

Well, unbelievably enough, I think she sold that shapeoko. Atleast it’s not listed anymore.

I do need to become more educated about older machines. That might be a new thread. For example, there was a 4x8 gerber sabre for sale for $1500 before Christmas that I almost bought. In hindsight, it turned out it’s a good thing I didn’t. Apparently they used proprietary software and controllers. Considering it wasn’t under power, I could have purchased a heavy piece of scrap metal.

This popped up locally last night.

https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/tl...801306459.html

Depending on the price, I might be interested in an older big machine.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

That looks like a DIY machine.
Old machines can be a very good value, but they can also be a LOT of trouble.

Beware of people selling old DIY machines, as they often are way overpriced, and perform very poorly.

A new Shapeoko XL is not too expensive, and is probably a good choice as a learning tool.

[bobby milam]

Since you are just looking for a cheaper machine to test, have you considered any of the Chinese machines? You can get them pretty cheap with a spindle. I wanted to go with a Camaster but it just wasn't in the budget right now so I picked one up. The components may not be the best stuff out there but I can change them out for less than the price of some of these machines.